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Do you learn Daf Yomi?


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#21 Snag

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:00 PM

Also, reviewing has to be done in a certain way (and I will not pretend to know what that is) so that it isn't just "postponing forgetting it."

if you ever figure out what that way is, PLEASE let me know. i forget everything :(
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#22 Geshmak

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:04 PM

i don't 'do the daf' myself, but i disagree with this blanket characterization. i think that for some people the sense of accomplishment which comes with completing masechtos is the only thing which motivates them to go to the shiur consistently. while they may not come away knowing the amount of material they would be learning with a slower, more intensive and reviewable regimen, they would likely not attend such a regimen so it's hakol revach.


Excellent point, Snag. Also, I'm thinking it's good to get at least a broad overview of the entire Talmud in one's lifetime, and thus have some recognition of, and familiarity with, Jewish concepts, issues and ideas, even if you cannot always master or recall details. There is also something nice about holding on the same page as others around the world. I've traveled on vacation to Miami, LA and of course Israel, and each time feel so good about sitting in on the local Daf yomi shiur just where I am holding and not missing a beat. Same for sometimes joining mid-day shiurim near the office, or weekends in the country or as a guest for a Shabbos simcha, etc.

I'm not trying to gain converts here. It's just that many of you seem to know a velt of Torah, and I was just wondering who else did the daily Daf. No one said yes yet (?)

#23 Snag

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:05 PM

I'm trying to gain converts here. It's just that many of you seem to know a velt of Torah, and I was just wondering who else did the daily Daf. No one said yes yet (?)

in this prat i'm going to have to go with gabbe - most people do not gain knowledge of "a velt of Torah" through daf yomi shiurim.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#24 Gabbe

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:05 PM

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#25 Snag

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:07 PM

The only way I have found that works is to review so many times that you are just sick of seeing the tzuras hadaf. But even then, you're just postponing forgetting for longer, but you will eventually forget it. Most people cannot have 2711 folios at the tip of their tongues.

exactly. i'm very bad with chazarah, but there was one masechto which i reviewed a bunch of times in a structured way, and at the end of the zman i felt i knew it pretty much down cold. six months later - :unsure:
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#26 Geshmak

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:07 PM

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#27 Gabbe

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:10 PM

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#28 Geshmak

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:12 PM

if you ever figure out what that way is, PLEASE let me know. i forget everything :(


Rabbi Moshe Trachtman has the method, but it takes alot of work, and note-taking:

http://www.yutorah.o...ective_Learning

#29 Gabbe

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:14 PM

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#30 Gabbe

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:23 PM

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#31 Snag

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 07:56 PM

I did not listen to the shiur, but I have read other chazara advice-systems, and there is always a catch.

yeah, usually that you actually have to learn and review...
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#32 Gadol

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 07:30 PM

Obviously it's better to know .001% of a daf that 0%, but I think that the system is inherently faulty. You're swishing through a daf in 45 minutes. Not a lot is sticking unless you review, which is difficult given the amount of material you are expected to cover per day ADDED TO the amount of material you are expected to review. And since chances are that very little from the 45-minute shiur stuck, your review is basically learning it again for the first time.

Also, reviewing has to be done in a certain way (and I will not pretend to know what that is) so that it isn't just "postponing forgetting it."

I personally think that even an amud yomi system would be far superior to daf yomi.


Good points and it is something that those of us that are not learning a Daf Yomi should seriously consider. I agree with you, that learning something is better than learning nothing.

#33 Geshmak

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 07:47 AM

in this prat i'm going to have to go with gabbe - most people do not gain knowledge of "a velt of Torah" through daf yomi shiurim.


You all make reasonable points, but nevertheless I credit the Daf Yomi for giving me a base of yedius in yahadus, halacha and hashkafah, even though I often do not recall exactly where something is, or specific details. Just yesterday, I was encouraged that I just knew the answer to a very interesting question posed by DQ, although I did not recall where I learned it. David F was kind enough to identify the correct pages in Nazir and Sanhedrin:
http://www.hashkafah...ost__p__1537502

#34 Rentsy

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:58 PM

Rav Lichtenstein is on the record as saying Rambam Yomi is much more useful than Daf Yomi.

He's right, of course. Someone who has done a Daf Yomi cycle probably isn't nearly as well off as someone who has gone through the entire Mishna Torah. Gemara skills/familiarity is another, distinct, and worthwhile thing to weigh. Some people wouldn't learn Gemara at all if not for Daf Yomi.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#35 Geshmak

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 05:15 PM

Rav Lichtenstein is on the record as saying Rambam Yomi is much more useful than Daf Yomi.

He's right, of course. Someone who has done a Daf Yomi cycle probably isn't nearly as well off as someone who has gone through the entire Mishna Torah. Gemara skills/familiarity is another, distinct, and worthwhile thing to weigh. Some people wouldn't learn Gemara at all if not for Daf Yomi.


Maybe I should try to do that as well. I wonder how long it takes to finish. Are there resources, like shiurim on line, available? How can I find out more?

#36 Rentsy

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 05:32 PM

Maybe I should try to do that as well. I wonder how long it takes to finGish. Are there resources, like shiurim on line, available? How can I find out more?

You just sort of do it. Rambam L'Am is a good resource. It's a good excuse to buy the new one volume Rambam.

The idea is to cover ground in a solid way, not to work out what the din is.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#37 Snag

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 06:44 PM

Rav Lichtenstein is on the record as saying Rambam Yomi is much more useful than Daf Yomi.

He's right, of course. Someone who has done a Daf Yomi cycle probably isn't nearly as well off as someone who has gone through the entire Mishna Torah. Gemara skills/familiarity is another, distinct, and worthwhile thing to weigh. Some people wouldn't learn Gemara at all if not for Daf Yomi.

interesting. i'm sure you are aware that this concept was heavily promoted by the rebbe mhm shlita.

Maybe I should try to do that as well. I wonder how long it takes to finish. Are there resources, like shiurim on line, available? How can I find out more?

if you do one perek a day, it takes three years to finish.

i guess i should mention that rav shach (and others) were strongly against widespread learning of rambam yomi, because the rambam is often cryptic, and, even where understood, there are instances where we do not pasken like him. thus there is the fear that a person may act not in accordance with halacha based on his study of rambam, unless he is a scholar in other areas as well.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#38 Rentsy

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 06:57 PM

i guess i should mention that rav shach (and others) were strongly against widespread learning of rambam yomi, because the rambam is often cryptic, and, even where understood, there are instances where we do not pasken like him. thus there is the fear that a person may act not in accordance with halacha based on his study of rambam, unless he is a scholar in other areas as well.

I don't think a person would try to pasken based on their knowledge from their Daf Yomi shiur. Neither should they on the basis of their Rambam.

Then again, Rav Shach represents 100 years of deveikut to Torah. His opinions on the acquisition of Torah are very important.

The Lubavitcher cycle doesn't take as much time as a Daf Yomi shiur. I'm thinking of taking the time and effort you'd put into a daf yomi and put that into Rambam, with the intent of getting much more out of it.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#39 Snag

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 06:58 PM

I don't think a person would try to pasken based on their knowledge from their Daf Yomi shiur. Neither should they on the basis of their Rambam.

Then again, Rav Shach represents 100 years of deveikut to Torah. His opinions on the acquisition of Torah are very important.

true, but the application of a gemara to psak halacha is (at least) one step further removed, and therefore that much less likely.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#40 moe says

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 07:10 PM

Rav Lichtenstein is on the record as saying Rambam Yomi is much more useful than Daf Yomi.

He's right, of course. Someone who has done a Daf Yomi cycle probably isn't nearly as well off as someone who has gone through the entire Mishna Torah. Gemara skills/familiarity is another, distinct, and worthwhile thing to weigh. Some people wouldn't learn Gemara at all if not for Daf Yomi.

there was a point in my learning career where I seriously considered learning a seder yomi in the rif... that seems in line with the opinion you're mentioning.
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