70 replies to this topic

[Snag]

there was a point in my learning career where I seriously considered learning a seder yomi in the rif... that seems in line with the opinion you're mentioning.

except that the rif would [not only be even more difficult than the rambam, but also] omit from your knowledge base any matters not halachically relevant in today's times.

[moe says]

except that the rif would [not only be even more difficult than the rambam, but also] omit from your knowledge base any matters not halachically relevant in today's times.

well, let's face it. there is no single body of work that could be learned without omitting some essential knowledge or opinions... learning the pnim of shulchan aruch could, arguably, be the worst idea, for the same reasons quoted above regarding learning the rambam.

the rif appeals to me because it is presented in line with the argumentation of (and is mostly the actual l'shonos of) the gemara itself, but with a focus on a) only those sugyos which pan out l'halacha and b) that which is nogeiah l'maasah. that type of familiarity with the y'sodos of the most relevant sugyos, halacha l'maisah- wise seems to me the best balance, and the most useful b'kius base to build, if one were so inclined to go about things in that way.

[Snag]

well, let's face it. there is no single body of work that could be learned without omitting some essential knowledge or opinions... learning the pnim of shulchan aruch could, arguably, be the worst idea, for the same reasons quoted above regarding learning the rambam.

the omittal i mentioned was referring to the resulting holes in your knowledge base, not to the halachic conclusions. the reason those who advocate studying rambam yomi do so, is because the rambam adresses every portion of Torah.

the rif appeals to me because it is presented in line with the argumentation of (and is mostly the actual l'shonos of) the gemara itself, but with a focus on a) only those sugyos which pan out l'halacha and b) that which is nogeiah l'maasah. that type of familiarity with the y'sodos of the most relevant sugyos, halacha l'maisah- wise seems to me the best balance, and the most useful b'kius base to build, if one were so inclined to go about things in that way.

i'd say to go with the tur and beis yosef, for that aim.

[moe says]

the omittal i mentioned was referring to the resulting holes in your knowledge base, not to the halachic conclusions. the reason those who advocate studying rambam yomi do so, is because the rambam adresses every portion of Torah.

what you are saying would apply equally well to any (aka all the) yeshivos that focus exclusively on one or two sdarim of shas.

i'd say to go with the tur and beis yosef, for that aim.

it depends on what your goal is, and how you, personally, go tzu to learning rishonim in general, I think. for me, it was a matter of trying to get a streamlined look at the halachic sugyos in shas, while still actually learning shas, and not a rishon. the rif isn't perfect in that regard, but he's the closest, I think.

[Snag]

what you are saying would apply equally well to any (aka all the) yeshivos that focus exclusively on one or two sdarim of shas.

except that their goal is not to impart a broad base of Torah knowledge at all, but to imbue their students with an understanding and appreciation for the analytical in-depth approach of study.

it depends on what your goal is, and how you, personally, go tzu to learning rishonim in general, I think. for me, it was a matter of trying to get a streamlined look at the halachic sugyos in shas, while still actually learning shas, and not a rishon. the rif isn't perfect in that regard, but he's the closest, I think.

ok.

[moe says]

ok.

truthfully, for my purposes, I would be happy to have halachic sugyos including those that applied lav davkah b'zman hazeh, almost like a backwards ein yaakov (how litvish would that be?) but I still think what you would gain by following the argumentation of these sugyos would be worth what you would lose by missing out on those y'dios... but Idk, it's all conjecture... I never did it (outside of sugyos I was already learning inside)

[Rentsy]

The only problem with Tur-Beit Yosef is that the books are hardly handy, or easily available on the internet.

Rambam, according to Yemenite manuscripts for anyone who feels inspired to go learn something.

If you for any reason can't navigate the above site, and just want to learn something.

[David F]

Rav Lichtenstein is on the record as saying Rambam Yomi is much more useful than Daf Yomi.
He's right, of course. Someone who has done a Daf Yomi cycle probably isn't nearly as well off as someone who has gone through the entire Mishna Torah. Gemara skills/familiarity is another, distinct, and worthwhile thing to weigh. Some people wouldn't learn Gemara at all if not for Daf Yomi.

Is he? I never heard him say such a thing.
He did suggest some twenty years ago, to devote the seder beki'ut in high schools to a program of Rambam rather than the dapim not learned be'iyun. While this is similar to what you report, it is not the same.

I strongly disgree that a Rambam cycle is more profitable than a daf yomi cycle. The major advantages of going over the Rambam is that it takes shorter and is more organised; so doing a daf yomi cycle properly is far more difficult than a Rambam cycle.

(I need to qualify the above statement - I am no speaking from personal knowledge; I haven't done either seriously as yet...)

there was a point in my learning career where I seriously considered learning a seder yomi in the rif... that seems in line with the opinion you're mentioning.

Not quite. But in מעשה רב סי׳ ס it is reported that the Gr"a did learn Rif every day - and it is not clear if it is the same two blatt he learned with Rashi daily (and lehavdil, I personally think learning Rashi and Rif before Tosafot is a very good idea), or whether it was a separate cycle.

it was a matter of trying to get a streamlined look at the halachic sugyos in shas, while still actually learning shas, and not a rishon. the rif isn't perfect in that regard, but he's the closest, I think.

I prefer the Rosh. He basically quotes the Rif, while notifying you of the major disagreements regarding the dinim.

[moe says]

Why is that valuable in and of itself as a goal?

/aghast

Because more than we need talmidim to have memorized (for the hour) any specific set of dinim or shittos, we need them to be able to think!

[moe says]

Is there a good Rosh on Shas that's available in an easy-to-read format? I'm defining easy-to-read as something other than the tiny Rashi script at the back of a Vilna-type shas. Something like what the Mifal Teshuvot HaRishonim has done for the Shu't of the Ro"sh.

oz v'hadar has redone practically all of the meforshim in the back (perhaps all by now) and the newer "shas lublin" would also be an address worth looking up.

[David F]

Is there a good Rosh on Shas that's available in an easy-to-read format? I'm defining easy-to-read as something other than the tiny Rashi script at the back of a Vilna-type shas. Something like what the Mifal Teshuvot HaRishonim has done for the Shu't of the Ro"sh.

Not that I know of.
There are new editions of Shas which make the Rosh more readible (like mow mentioned), and the Rosh is in the Bar Ilan responsa project. By I don't know of any separate edition.

[Rentsy]

Clearly we should all learn kol ha Torah kula.

I mean it.

[Geshmak]

Maskim. The Daf works well for me, particularly due to the available resources, live shiurim, on line, etcetera.

[Rentsy]

Maskim. The Daf works well for me, particularly due to the available resources, live shiurim, on line, etcetera.

That's true. Popularity leads to ease of use.

For example, the mishna berura is very popular. You can buy it beautifully typeset, menukad, etc.

I, however, prefer the Aruch HaShulchan. The Aruch HaShulchan has been photo-offset multiple times. It's usually somewhat legible. Sure, there's an Oz V'Hadar out there, but it's expensive, and isn't common yet.

[Snag]

Why is that valuable in and of itself as a goal?

because in my {admittedly somewhat limited} experience, bochurim who have spent 4-5 years using the american yeshivishe method (going extremely slow and microanalyzing everything), do better, when 'released' and studying at a quicker pace, than their european yeshivishe counterparts. doing better being measured by the clarity with which they can dissect and absorb a sugya they approach for the first time.

[Geshmak]

If anyone might be interested, we are starting a new Meshechta, Avodah Zorah, tomorrow morning (Monday, August 16). Jump aboard!

Helpful resources include the following:

Daily Shiur, usually by R' Moshe Elefant or R' Yosef Grossman, posted in advance on afternoon before: http://www.ouradio.org/daf
or http://www.ou.org/to...mi#browse-torah

Rabbi Sholom Rosner's daily shiur: http://www.projectsinai.org/daf_yomi/

I prefer R' Rosner's shiur, recorded daily in Beit Shemesh, Israel, and posted on the web every morning (Israel time, so you have when you wake up, to listen online or download podcast). You can subscribe to the podcast, as well as the OU's daily podcast, so it automatically downloads on your computer I-Tunes, I-Pod or other mp3. However, R' Rosner is on hiatus for one week now.

Also, check out: http://www.e-daf.com/ and http://www.kipa.co.il/daf_yomi/

Of course, there are also live shiurim wherever you may be in the Jewish world.

Hatzlachah!

[Snag]

לפי שהתכלית המכונת במה שחובר בתלמוד וזולתו כבר נכרתה ואבדה
ותכלית הלמדנים כלוי הזמן במשא ומתן שבתלמוד כאילו הכונה והתכלית
היא האמון בוכוח לא זולת זה. וזו לא היתה הכונה הראשונה אבל המשא
ומתן והוכוח אמנם נפלו במקרה כאשר היה מאמר שקול ופרשו אחד
בפרוש ופרשו אחר בחלופו הוצרך כל אחד מהם להראות אופן ראיתו
ולהכריע פרושו. והכונה הראשונה אמנם היה ידיעת מה שצריך לעשות
או להזהר ממנו.

For24 the intended objective of the Talmud has been lost25 and
the objective of the lamdanim is a waste of time in Talmudic give and
take, as if nothing more than skill in argumentation is the intent and
objective. This argumentation was not the primary goal26 but rather
emerged in the course of debate over conflicting interpretations of a
statement in need of clarification. The primary goal, in fact, is knowing
what one must do or avoid.2

http://www.hakirah.o...l 9 Shapiro.pdf

alte reid. it's an ancient debate, possibly going back to the unanswered question at the conclusion of horoyos...