Jump to content


Photo

Amud Aleph


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:01 AM

Why is there no Amud Aleph (page 1) in the Gemara?

#2 Guest_Melech_*

Guest_Melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:03 AM

....

#3 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:08 AM

It's there in the Yerushalmi.

In the Bavli, it was the cover page.


Really? Wow, you learn something new every day. I recall hearing it said that it was a lesson about no beginning or end to the Torah, or learning; or, per R' Shlomo Carlebach, that it's a Munkatche passport.

#4 Guest_Melech_*

Guest_Melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:11 AM

....

#5 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:18 AM

And I'm sure there's cosmic significance to there being four lines to Rashi at the top of the page before the short lines start, such as that you should review torah four times like with Moshe Rabbeinu. Or it's just how nonJews set up the page.


yet, I've heard some much about the importance of the Tzuras HaDaf, one of the big innovations of Art Scroll over Soncino (besides the clearer explanations)? I think that is rooted in the concern that one change in the Tzura may lead to another, etc., and there is something to be said for all Klal Yisroel having the same Gemara, Rashi, Tosfos, to date.

#6 Diogenes The Cynic

Diogenes The Cynic

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 899 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:52 AM

What was said before: Title page.
Libertarian. Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.

#7 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 12:16 PM

What was said before: Title page.


I wonder when the Daf numbers were assigned. Was that only when the Talmud was printed (makes sense, as it fits the Rashi and Tosfos applicable to each page, with rare exception). If so, is it just that Yerushalmi had a different printer (perhaps at a later time)?

#8 Guest_Melech_*

Guest_Melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2010 - 12:19 PM

....

#9 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 12:29 PM

start reading: http://printingtheta...org/essays.html


Wow, Melech, that looks really interesting to me (will be nice to learn about the pages I have been studying all these years). I saved the link and will print out for later reading.

Is there a short answer to my question though for now? (Ok if not.)

Thanks!

#10 Guest_Melech_*

Guest_Melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2010 - 12:34 PM

....

#11 Snag

Snag

    הבל יפצה פי

  • Banned
  • 11,108 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 07:42 PM

And I'm sure there's cosmic significance to there being four lines to Rashi at the top of the page before the short lines start, such as that you should review torah four times like with Moshe Rabbeinu. Or it's just how nonJews and apostates set up the page.

because there are four lines of separation between the sefarim in a sefer Torah. :)
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#12 Rentsy

Rentsy

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,005 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:14 PM

You realize the four lines thing comes from Bomberg, it's just a printing convention that makes things look pretty, and Bomberg was an apikorus?

As in "apostate." As in "converted to Christianity."
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#13 Snag

Snag

    הבל יפצה פי

  • Banned
  • 11,108 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:18 PM

You realize the four lines thing comes from Bomberg, it's just a printing convention that makes things look pretty, and Bomberg was an apikorus?

As in "apostate." As in "converted to Christianity."

yeah. there's no 'sarcastic leer' or 'sardonic grin' emoticon. :(
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#14 Guest_Melech_*

Guest_Melech_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:24 PM

....

#15 Rentsy

Rentsy

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,005 posts

Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:29 PM

It had a haskama from the Pope.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#16 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for the article links, Melech. I read them with interest, and some healthy skepticism as at least one seemed to push an agenda (such as, left - right controversies between Amoraim whose apparent familiarity with the world around them must mean that they were assimilated participants rather than knowledgable observers; how unlikely and self-serving a conclusion).

As for the absent Amud Aleph, I understand the cover page explanation, but I subscribe to the notion (which we discussed elsewhere) that everything happens for a reason, and has a deeper significance than meets the eye.

I recall hearing it said that the missing Amud Aleph was a lesson about, for example, no beginning or end to the Torah, or learning; or, per R' Shlomo Carlebach, that it's a Munkatche passport.

See: http://blog.webyeshi...r-contribution/
although the written summary is not nearly as moving as the actual Carlebach song/story in one of his albums, Shlomo Carlebach, Greatest Stories Volume 2.
http://www.mostlymus...s-volume-2.html

#17 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:56 AM

Why is there no Amud Aleph (page 1) in the Gemara?


Yes, Yes, we all know how that Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim joke goes... <_<

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#18 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:00 PM

Yes, Yes, we all know how that Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim joke goes... <_<


I may have heard it, but I don't remember, please tell me.

#19 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:05 PM

I may have heard it, but I don't remember, please tell me.


Don't make me say it.

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#20 Geshmak

Geshmak

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:09 PM

Don't make me say it.

Ok, you could just PM it as I am curious.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users