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Did Jews Really have Anything to do with the Death of Yeshua


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#1 Thadius

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:04 PM

Having been raised in a Christian family I remember having always been taught that it was technically the Jews not the Romans who had Yeshua crucified.Having just come into Judaism I do not know the Jewish stance on this and I was wondering what the over all jewish opinion was on this statement. Personally I think it was all propaganda started by the church to discredit Jews. I heard somewhere that the so called facts given by the New Testement couldn't be true due to the fact that the Pharisees never had night trials and that they wouldn't have been nearly as corrupt as the NT makes them out to be.

#2 LumpyPostage

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:09 PM

I thought the Sanhedrin tried Jesus.
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#3 MCohen

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:23 PM

The jewish form of capital punishment was stoning. The romans crucified. You do the math.
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#4 warren

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 02:24 PM

The jewish form of capital punishment was stoning. The romans crucified. You do the math.

While not disputing your point, we did have other methods of execution. Since we're not sure what Jesus was executed for (falsely claiming to be Messiah is not a capital crime in Judaism) were we to have killed him (not that we did) he could have been killed by either stoning or by strangulation, the other two not being applicable.
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#5 Krimskrams

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 02:53 PM

Since we're not sure what Jesus was executed for (falsely claiming to be Messiah is not a capital crime in Judaism)

Can't find the exact citation, but doesn't the Torah say at some point something like "these are the eternal laws, if anybody comes and adds something or takes something away or changes anything in the name of G-d, stone him"? I'm pretty sure the Biblical Jesus did this, so I guess that would be the reason...if it was even possible for the Jewish courts of the time to impose the death penalty, they didn't have anything near the power for that...

Personally I stick by the suggestion that, as only the later (bar Kokhba era) gospels make any reference to Judas betraying Jesus, any claims of 'the blood being on our hands' or of Jews having anything to do with it, I think I'd put it down to Christians trying to distance themselves from the Jews of the time. Partly due to the Christian disillusion with the Jews entertaining the idea of bar Kokhba being a potential Messiah claimant, when the Christians thought Jesus was already the Messiah, and partly due to the fact that the Christians (understandably) didn't want to suffer the effects of Roman swords. Hence, they came out, 'look, we're not Jews, how could we be Jews, they betrayed us!', when really we only betrayed them by not buying into their claims :glasses:

My understanding of the whole thing, I can't promise I'm right...

#6 warren

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 03:37 PM

Can't find the exact citation, but doesn't the Torah say at some point something like "these are the eternal laws, if anybody comes and adds something or takes something away or changes anything in the name of G-d, stone him"?

It does say something like that (Deuteronomy 13:1), without the stoning part.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#7 LucidDreams

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 05:32 PM

The religion I was around in childhood depended on where I was living at the time. I rarely saw one side of the family and Babushka never told me I was Jewish.

I cannot say it was all bad however. I got to meet and have supper with Richard Wurmbrand and his wife Sabina once, which was way cool. Except I thought he was going to actually keep one of my curls. LOL

I've heard all kinds of things from Christianity concerning the death of Christ and Jews. From a "spiritual Israel" to what is referred to as replacement theology, to the belief of fundamentalist evangelists such as John Hagee, that God said if they blessed the Jews he would bless them.

Probably the most interesting thing I had heard said about the death of Christ was that they saw the Jewish people blindness to Yeshua as a gift from the Jews. That it was part of God's plan to offer salvation to Gentiles. To them it was a thing to be joyful over, not angry.

TBH, I was raised around almost nothing but Gentiles. And though I know some did not like Jewish people, the complaints were never about who killed Christ. It was more political in nature.

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#8 Ahavati

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 05:37 PM

Having been raised in a Christian family [/snip].


Curious - what denomination?
If not for my attempts to be a "good Christian" (i.e. someone who follows what Jesus taught and not what the Pauline Epistles taught), I doubt I'd be an orthodox Jew right now. Shemmy

#9 brianna

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:23 PM

The Romans killed Jesus. But the truth is that it happened two thousand years ago. And being that he was just another guy - not a God or anything like that - it's time for everyone to get over it.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

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#10 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:14 PM

The Romans killed Jesus. But the truth is that it happened two thousand years ago. And being that he was just another guy - not a God or anything like that - it's time for everyone to get over it.

:stupid:
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#11 Ahavati

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:15 PM

The Romans killed Jesus. But the truth is that it happened two thousand years ago. And being that he was just another guy - not a God or anything like that - it's time for everyone to get over it.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
If not for my attempts to be a "good Christian" (i.e. someone who follows what Jesus taught and not what the Pauline Epistles taught), I doubt I'd be an orthodox Jew right now. Shemmy

#12 Geshmak

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:31 PM

ah, what the heck. Wikipedia doesn't know that part of the process of S'gilah is to hang him up after, albeit just until nightfall. It was the Jews. We stoned him and then hung him up until nightfall. Ok, I said it. Now what?

#13 Snag

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:36 PM

ah, what the heck. Wikipedia doesn't know that part of the process of S'gilah is to hang him up after, albeit just until nightfall. It was the Jews. We stoned him and then hung him up until nightfall. Ok, I said it. Now what?

s'kilah. until before nightfall davka, as leaving him up until nightfall would violate a negative commandment. and, in practice, the stoned person was hung, by his wrists (not crucified), for a moment only, then immediately taken down and buried.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#14 Geshmak

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:46 PM

s'kilah. until before nightfall davka, as leaving him up until nightfall would violate a negative commandment. and, in practice, the stoned person was hung, by his wrists (not crucified), for a moment only, then immediately taken down and buried.


hmmm,...if memory serves me correctly, I think the Romans grabbed his body before we could bury him (or after) and re-hung him their style? I believe it's in a sefer of censored Gemoros/Rashis.

#15 Snag

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:48 PM

hmmm,...if memory serves me correctly, I think the Romans grabbed his body before we could bury him (or after) and re-hung him their style? I believe it's in a sefer of censored Gemoros/Rashis.

i never saw this in the classic chisronos hashas.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#16 Geshmak

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:51 PM

i never saw this in the classic chisronos hashas.


I could be mistaken. Never mind. :oops:



:wink2:

#17 Snag

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:53 PM

I could be mistaken. Never mind. :oops:



:wink2:

's all good. :drinks:
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#18 Krimskrams

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:06 PM

But...why did we try to kill Muhammed as a boy, then? How did we know he's grow up to hear angels? How does that have anything to do with Big J?

:blink:

#19 brianna

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:49 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Hilarious, I know.

The irrationality of Christianity amazes me. Although most religions are pretty loony when you actually start thinking about their core principles.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#20 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:10 PM

Hilarious, I know.

The irrationality of Christianity amazes me. Although most religions are pretty loony when you actually start thinking about their core principles.

And yet there are millions of followers....
Judaism does make the most sense of the lot -- or should I just say has the least ridiculous origin.
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.




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