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Did Jews Really have Anything to do with the Death of Yeshua


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#21 Krimskrams

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:28 PM

And yet there are millions of followers....
Judaism does make the most sense of the lot -- or should I just say has the least ridiculous origin.


I hope you're not trying to suggest that Mormonism has a ridiculous origin. I've seen the South Park episode, I know it makes sense! Of course it's all totally logical, and of course G-d would be upset at Smith for losing the translation and make him do it all again from different plates, that's conclusive proof. Who needs identical translations of the Torah into Greek when you can get totally different translations of the same basic idea? And if that weren't enough, I even own the Book of Mormon. It's in Portuguese, and I don't speak Portuguese, but still it makes just as much sense to me as it would if it were written in English. Surely that suggests that there is some kind of divine power in the words...?

#22 LumpyPostage

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:08 PM

Would it really matter if Jews killed Jesus? If he was a god and knew it was coming surely he could have gotten out of it. And he told his followers to forgive everybody, even the people who killed him.

A true antisemite should hate Jesus as much as he hates any other Jew.


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#23 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:20 PM

Would it really matter if Jews killed Jesus? If he was a god and knew it was coming surely he could have gotten out of it. And he told his followers to forgive everybody, even the people who killed him.

Forget that, he NEEDED to die in order for his followers' sins to be forgiven. That was the whole POINT. So not only did whoever kill him do G-d's will, the Christians owe them for saving them from eternal damnation!!!
[/flirting]

#24 LumpyPostage

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:42 PM

I've never understood how his death forgives their sins and yet they have to confess their sins all the time.
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#25 Krimskrams

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:18 PM

I've never understood how his death forgives their sins and yet they have to confess their sins all the time.


HAH!!! I laughed out loud, that's brilliant, really it is...

Anybody read the gospel of Judas? Those guys really should be thanking us, as KR hit on, if we're going to believe that we ever killed the guy

#26 warren

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:37 PM

HAH!!! I laughed out loud, that's brilliant, really it is...

Anybody read the gospel of Judas? Those guys really should be thanking us, as KR hit on, if we're going to believe that we ever killed the guy

"The Gospel of Judas" is not part of their scriptures. I'm not saying that what they do consider holy is necessarily historically accurate, but neither is that work.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

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The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#27 LumpyPostage

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 11:59 AM

They killed a lot of people over the years to keep Judas the bad guy.
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#28 Savannah

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:02 PM

Can we pin a thread called "We didn't kill your god, now go away"?

#29 Razie

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:14 PM

I dunno. Did the jews kill him? Let's assume what I've heard and such is true.

What liability do we have for the destruction following the Bar Kampsa fiasco? It led to a serious of events where people got killed.

(assuming the following is true - )
Jesus had some crazy ideas and maybe he was a nut, but instead of being "chanoch al pi darco" he was tossed out and shunned (so I'm told).

So embarrassed, or falling into further delusions, he said "Frick you all, I'm right. I'm meant to be someone. I'm god's child" and that led to a series of events that got him killed. I think, if the stories are true, that a little bit more understanding for a rebellious and nutty yeshiva kid could have saved a lot of killing, including his own.

#30 Thadius

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:50 PM

Curious - what denomination?

Methodist

#31 Guest_Shuli_*

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:12 PM

.

#32 warren

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:30 AM

(assuming the following is true - )
Jesus had some crazy ideas and maybe he was a nut, but instead of being "chanoch al pi darco" he was tossed out and shunned (so I'm told).

So embarrassed, or falling into further delusions, he said "Frick you all, I'm right. I'm meant to be someone. I'm god's child" and that led to a series of events that got him killed. I think, if the stories are true, that a little bit more understanding for a rebellious and nutty yeshiva kid could have saved a lot of killing, including his own.

It's a bad idea to assume when something isn't true. The source you seem to be referring to is about a person by the same name who lived about one hundred years before the birth of the Jesus of Christianity. Also, the quote there is "Always let the left hand thrust away and the right hand draw near", not "chanoch al pi darco"
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#33 AMT

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 01:03 PM

OP asks "Did Jews really have anything to do with the death of Yeshua"

The way I understand it, at the time that all happened, the Jews were under the rule of the Romans. They weren't able to exercise full Jewish law under the Romans, thereby they weren't 'allowed' to just stone a blasphemer - which is what they were accusing Yeshua of. They took him to Pilate who found 'no fault' with him [since proclaiming to be G-d or the 'Son of G-d' wasn't punishable in Roman law...] but had him executed anyway so that there wouldn't be a riot.
[According to the 'new testament']


Forget that, he NEEDED to die in order for his followers' sins to be forgiven. That was the whole POINT. So not only did whoever kill him do G-d's will, the Christians owe them for saving them from eternal damnation!!!


I know this is tongue-in-cheek but it's spot on, i think. I'm not sure why people come up with the whole 'Christ Killer' slur.. it's ridiculous, if you believe that the man had to die to save you, and that's what your religion is based on.. then.. be thankful - somebody had to die, and somebody had to sin against G-d in order to buy you salvation.

#34 Hur

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:26 PM

I'm new here and find many of these questions interesting. I believe that Jesus was brought up on multiple charges by the chief priests and the rulers: blasphemy for the Jews and sedition for the Romans. The cross was for political executions.

He was executed by the Romans for declaring himself The King of the Jews/Messiah, because there was no King but Caesar, although the charges were weak. The Romans didnt care about any of the religious charges made against Jesus.

Jesus was first taken first to the High Priest/s Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin. From there he was sent to the Roman governor, Pilate, who wanting to get rid of him, sent him to Herod Antipas, who then sent him back to Pilate.

The Book of Acts actually blames both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, i.e. mostly the chief priests and the rulers, Not the whole nation.

Many Jews including many Pharisees were for Jesus but the trial was during the night hours when most were asleep. I believe the Jewish leadership was worried that the Romans would respond to a Messianic revolt with the destruction of their nation which they did in 130 AD.

Thats my two cents.

Hur :)

#35 rvn2590

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:14 PM

I'm new here and find many of these questions interesting. I believe that Jesus was brought up on multiple charges by the chief priests and the rulers: blasphemy for the Jews and sedition for the Romans. The cross was for political executions.

He was executed by the Romans for declaring himself The King of the Jews/Messiah, because there was no King but Caesar, although the charges were weak. The Romans didn't care about any of the religious charges made against Jesus.

Jesus was first taken first to the High Priest/s Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin. From there he was sent to the Roman governor, Pilate, who wanting to get rid of him, sent him to Herod Antipas, who then sent him back to Pilate.

The Book of Acts actually blames both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, i.e. mostly the chief priests and the rulers, Not the whole nation.

Many Jews including many Pharisees were for Jesus but the trial was during the night hours when most were asleep. I believe the Jewish leadership was worried that the Romans would respond to a Messianic revolt with the destruction of their nation which they did in 130 AD.

That's my two cents.

Hur :)


It's not credible that the Sanhedrin had the trial at night since Jewish law mandates it must be held during daytime so I don't find the Christian version of events to be believable.
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#36 Hur

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:27 PM

It's not credible that the Sanhedrin had the trial at night since Jewish law mandates it must be held during daytime so I don't find the Christian version of events to be believable.


That's interesting, but how do we know what they would do at that time in ordinary or extraordinary circumstances? I think they were afraid of another messianic rebellion that would lead to a bloody Roman suppression. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.)

Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. [Luke, Acts of the apostles 5.36-37]

According to Flavius Josephus, "...there were many people during the governorship of Festus who deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were in fact for procuring innovations and changes of the government. These men prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty. [Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.259]

Sometimes under difficult political circumstances what people do is very different from what the rules tell them to do. Or, maybe this wasnt an official meeting of all members, as its purpose was predetermined to get rid of Jesus for the sake of the nation. Josephus has other examples of the many rebellions in those days (like the Zealots) and one more could ignite a catastrophe. And I think that would explain why they took such a course of action.

Hur :)

#37 rvn2590

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:46 PM

That's interesting, but how do we know what they would do at that time in ordinary or extraordinary circumstances? I think they were afraid of another messianic rebellion that would lead to a bloody Roman suppression. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.)

"Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. [Luke, Acts of the apostles 5.36-37]"

According to Flavius Josephus, "...there were many people during the governorship of Festus who deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were in fact for procuring innovations and changes of the government. These men prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty. [Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.259]

Sometimes under difficult political circumstances what people do is very different from what the rules tell them to do. Or, maybe this wasn't an official meeting of all members, as its purpose was predetermined to get rid of Jesus for the sake of the nation. Josephus has other examples of the many rebellions in those days (like the Zealots) and one more could ignite a catastrophe. And I think that would explain why they took such a course of action.

Hur :)


Josephus was a Jew who was a collaborator with our people's oppressor so in my eyes his views on things are suspect.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#38 paganyid

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:49 PM

But just the opposite: if so many false messiahs were popping up throughout history, why should Jesus be so worrisome?
Was it his charisma? But the NT is clear: it was his miracles. And part of the sin of Jewish leadership was seeing these miracles or realizing their true-to-form evidence but insisting on the old ways, their own power and authority and self-importance rather than miracles
MIRACLES MIRACLES MIRACLES POOF POOF POOF

#39 Short

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:08 PM

But just the opposite: if so many false messiahs were popping up throughout history, why should Jesus be so worrisome?
Was it his charisma? But the NT is clear: it was his miracles. And part of the sin of Jewish leadership was seeing these miracles or realizing their true-to-form evidence but insisting on the old ways, their own power and authority and self-importance rather than miracles
MIRACLES MIRACLES MIRACLES POOF POOF POOF

Whoever said he was so worrisome? The exact opposite is true - his followers were perhaps a tiny cult during his lifetime. Christianity only took shape later, and really only gained a foothold much, much later. The fact that he wasn't much more than just another nuisance is evidenced by the dearth of literature, Jewish and otherwise, on the subject (Obviously, everything that is written in the Gospels and the New Testament was written later and has little or no historical veracity)
Ask a seismologist why there was a tsunami, don't ask a rabbi. - Moshi

#40 Short

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:12 PM

I'm new here and find many of these questions interesting. I believe that Jesus was brought up on multiple charges by the chief priests and the rulers: blasphemy for the Jews and sedition for the Romans. The cross was for political executions.

He was executed by the Romans for declaring himself The King of the Jews/Messiah, because there was no King but Caesar, although the charges were weak. The Romans didnt care about any of the religious charges made against Jesus.

Jesus was first taken first to the High Priest/s Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin. From there he was sent to the Roman governor, Pilate, who wanting to get rid of him, sent him to Herod Antipas, who then sent him back to Pilate.

The Book of Acts actually blames both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, i.e. mostly the chief priests and the rulers, Not the whole nation.

Many Jews including many Pharisees were for Jesus but the trial was during the night hours when most were asleep. I believe the Jewish leadership was worried that the Romans would respond to a Messianic revolt with the destruction of their nation which they did in 130 AD.

Thats my two cents.

That's interesting, but how do we know what they would do at that time in ordinary or extraordinary circumstances? I think they were afraid of another messianic rebellion that would lead to a bloody Roman suppression. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.)

Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. [Luke, Acts of the apostles 5.36-37]

According to Flavius Josephus, "...there were many people during the governorship of Festus who deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were in fact for procuring innovations and changes of the government. These men prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty. [Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.259]

Sometimes under difficult political circumstances what people do is very different from what the rules tell them to do. Or, maybe this wasnt an official meeting of all members, as its purpose was predetermined to get rid of Jesus for the sake of the nation. Josephus has other examples of the many rebellions in those days (like the Zealots) and one more could ignite a catastrophe. And I think that would explain why they took such a course of action.

That's the thing - according to some interpretations of the Jewish literature on the subject (which isn't much) the Sanhedrin did indeed execute Jesus for heresy/blasphemy. Basically, the Jews are taking the responsibility here upon ourselves that yes, we did kill the guy, and hey, he deserved it. Then again, you have the secular literature (including Josephus, who was know to play with his facts when he felt it necessary) which either blames the Jews for the actual execution, or the Romans, or both, the Jews for denouncing Jesus and the Romans for executing him.

My point is is, I guess, that you can't really choose which parts of which truths and lies you want to believe in order to come up with the prettiest story that makes everyone the most happy.
Ask a seismologist why there was a tsunami, don't ask a rabbi. - Moshi




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