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Did Jews Really have Anything to do with the Death of Yeshua


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#41 TimeRebbe

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:17 PM

There were several people in the talmud who could have been Yeshu; the stories are similar enough that gospel writers centuries later could easily have fabricated him from existing sources. That there was a person who was Yeshu (or Yehushua) who was the son of Mary (Miriam) who was executed for "culting" or rebelling by the Sanhedrin or by the romans seems to be historical fact. whether his followers later became christianity or whether it was later christians who "stole" the story to make up their "jesus" is quite debatable, and there does not seem to be any consensus.
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
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#42 Belle

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:48 PM

Can we pin a thread called "We didn't kill your god, now go away"?


:lol:
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#43 Yudi

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:22 AM

The Romans crucified 100,000 Jews in the 1st century CE.

I’ve always thought it funny that the Christians made such a fuss over one crucified Jew, but ignored the other 99,999 crucified Jews.

#44 paganyid

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:08 PM

did you see that book review in haaretz for a book that posits Jesus was really Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus?
Don't know if its on this side of the sanity divide but pretty darn interesting...
http://www.haaretz.c...es/1192450.html

#45 meltzerboy

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:46 PM

OP asks "Did Jews really have anything to do with the death of Yeshua"

The way I understand it, at the time that all happened, the Jews were under the rule of the Romans. They weren't able to exercise full Jewish law under the Romans, thereby they weren't 'allowed' to just stone a blasphemer - which is what they were accusing Yeshua of. They took him to Pilate who found 'no fault' with him [since proclaiming to be G-d or the 'Son of G-d' wasn't punishable in Roman law...] but had him executed anyway so that there wouldn't be a riot.
[According to the 'new testament']




I know this is tongue-in-cheek but it's spot on, i think. I'm not sure why people come up with the whole 'Christ Killer' slur.. it's ridiculous, if you believe that the man had to die to save you, and that's what your religion is based on.. then.. be thankful - somebody had to die, and somebody had to sin against G-d in order to buy you salvation.



You may be right; I'm no expert in any form of Christianity, or Judaism for that matter. But remember that Jesus was/is thought of as both human and divine, so that his killing by whomever would be considered a murder in human terms.

#46 meltzerboy

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:55 PM

There were several people in the talmud who could have been Yeshu; the stories are similar enough that gospel writers centuries later could easily have fabricated him from existing sources. That there was a person who was Yeshu (or Yehushua) who was the son of Mary (Miriam) who was executed for "culting" or rebelling by the Sanhedrin or by the romans seems to be historical fact. whether his followers later became christianity or whether it was later christians who "stole" the story to make up their "jesus" is quite debatable, and there does not seem to be any consensus.


All of which is quite interesting. Wasn't there a group of "Jewish Christians" at the time who believed Jesus to be the Messiah but kept the Jewish laws and customs at the same time?

#47 Yudi

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 11:27 PM

Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified, they believe someone else replaced him and was crucified, and that Jesus went straight up to heaven without dying, and will return again to earth during the end times.

Good news, yeah? No ‘Christ-killer’ label on us from the Muslims. No, not quite......

Muslims believe that the Jews are guilty of the attempted murder of Jesus.

#48 starwolf

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 11:55 PM

All of which is quite interesting. Wasn't there a group of "Jewish Christians" at the time who believed Jesus to be the Messiah but kept the Jewish laws and customs at the same time?


Yes. For a good history of the relationships between Jews and Christians, I suggest the following book:
http://www.amazon.co...97659235&sr=8-4


Jewish-Christian relationships are not the only topic of the book.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#49 Yudi

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:15 AM

Yeshua crucified.


Yeshua


death of Yeshua"
accusing Yeshua of

Why do people refer to Jesus as Yeshua? The only people I've ever heard referring to Jesus as Yeshua are Christians.

#50 meltzerboy

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:09 PM

Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified, they believe someone else replaced him and was crucified, and that Jesus went straight up to heaven without dying, and will return again to earth during the end times.

Good news, yeah? No ‘Christ-killer’ label on us from the Muslims. No, not quite......

Muslims believe that the Jews are guilty of the attempted murder of Jesus.

This is news to me regarding Islamic belief that Jesus went straight to heaven without being crucified and will return to Earth. However, I'm almost positive Islam does not believe in the divinity of Jesus, correct? What you're saying sounds like they do believe that Jesus is the son of G-d, if not equivalent to G-d.

By the way, am I correct that the Messiah is supposed to be a messenger of G-d, or an angel, that brings peace to Earth, and in no way G-d himself, and that the Messiah is supposed to come to Earth only once, no return visits?

#51 TimeRebbe

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 06:08 PM

Why do people refer to Jesus as Yeshua? The only people I've ever heard referring to Jesus as Yeshua are Christians.


yeshu is hebrew for 'jesus'. some people say yushka
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#52 Yudi

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:28 PM

This is news to me regarding Islamic belief that Jesus went straight to heaven without being crucified and will return to Earth. However, I'm almost positive Islam does not believe in the divinity of Jesus, correct? What you're saying sounds like they do believe that Jesus is the son of G-d, if not equivalent to G-d.

By the way, am I correct that the Messiah is supposed to be a messenger of G-d, or an angel, that brings peace to Earth, and in no way G-d himself, and that the Messiah is supposed to come to Earth only once, no return visits?

Islam is an absolute monotheist religion. Islam does not believe in, and refutes any, notion that Jesus was divine or the son of G-d. Such notions in Islam are considered shirk, and blasphemous.

Islam believes Jesus is a prophet who came to lead the Jews back to G-d, but was rejected, and who will return in the end days, convert all the Christians to Islam (as Jesus is a Muslim), kill the Dajjal (the anti-christ or false messiah, who many Muslims believe is the Jews' actual messiah) with a spear through the heart at Lod, and then they will wipe out all the Jews from the world, then that will usher in universal peace as Islam rules. Nice stuff eh :rolleyes2:

Messiah? Are you asking how Jews, Christians or Muslims view the Messiah?

#53 Yudi

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:33 PM

yeshu is hebrew for 'jesus'. some people say yushka

Thanks. I still think Christians when I hear the word Yeshua. At first I thought it was nice, them acknowledging his Jewishness, but then saw that it's only a ploy used to try and convert Jews to Christianity.

#54 meltzerboy

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:52 PM

Islam is an absolute monotheist religion. Islam does not believe in, and refutes any, notion that Jesus was divine or the son of G-d. Such notions in Islam are considered shirk, and blasphemous.

Islam believes Jesus is a prophet who came to lead the Jews back to G-d, but was rejected, and who will return in the end days, convert all the Christians to Islam (as Jesus is a Muslim), kill the Dajjal (the anti-christ or false messiah, who many Muslims believe is the Jews' actual messiah) with a spear through the heart at Lod, and then they will wipe out all the Jews from the world, then that will usher in universal peace as Islam rules. Nice stuff eh :rolleyes2:

Messiah? Are you asking how Jews, Christians or Muslims view the Messiah?

Thanks for the explanation. Yes, very nice stuff! The Jehovah's Witnesses likewise don't believe that Jesus is divine, but more of a prophet, who was sent to Earth by G-d but rejected by many Jews and will return to create a world of peace. Similar story to Islam except for the conversion to that religion and the anti-Christ angle. But, of course as they say, G-d is in the details.

I'm asking about the original notion of the Messiah in the Torah, and if and how Christians particularly reconcile that notion to their own religion.

#55 Yudi

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:15 PM

I'm asking about the original notion of the Messiah in the Torah, and if and how Christians particularly reconcile that notion to their own religion.

There are many more knowledgeable Jews than I on this forum. And perhaps they too will answer.

The notion of Mashiach is not in the Torah. Mashiach means 'anointed' as in with oil, eg when being crowned king. Even the great Cyrus of Persia was anointed by the Jews and referred to as mashiach. Not to be confused with the Mashiach. Somehow, sometime, the idea of a great person in the future who would come and redeem us, came to be, but I don't know when or how this idea came to be.

As to the Christians, my understanding is that they believe G-d sent his son, Jesus to earth, they believe Jesus was the messiah foretold in the Torah, ie in their Christian interpretation of the Torah, and their changing of words in the Torah to suit their own ideology.

The Muslims have Jesus as their prophet, plus also the Mahdi who leads the Muslim armies to victory. Islam has both Jesus and the Mahdi as the main figures at the end times.

#56 TimeRebbe

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:29 PM

Moshiach will be a descendant of the Davidic Kings, and will be heralded (or possibly anointed by?) Eliyahu Hanavi (Elijah the Prophet)

not much is known, as the prophecies regarding the End Of Days are pretty vague.
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#57 Yudi

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:37 PM

Moshiach will be a descendant of the Davidic Kings, and will be heralded (or possibly anointed by?) Eliyahu Hanavi (Elijah the Prophet)

not much is known, as the prophecies regarding the End Of Days are pretty vague.

There are some great stories about Eliyahu coming to earth to see if humankind is ready for Mashiach.

#58 yoel

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:37 PM

I'm asking about the original notion of the Messiah in the Torah, and if and how Christians particularly reconcile that notion to their own religion.

There's a general principle that we should focus on this world and not worry too much about the next.

I don't know how much reconciling xians do. It seems to me that every one I know who's seriously considered what's written in the Torah against what's written in the "new testament" has come away not buying the general xian argument.
וזה עקר צער של ישראל שיש להם בגלות
הכל הוא מחמת שנפלו מהדעת ותולין
הכל בטבע ובמקרים ובמזל

רבי נחמן מברסלב

#59 Yudi

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:44 PM

There's a general principle that we should focus on this world and not worry too much about the next.

I don't know how much reconciling xians do. It seems to me that every one I know who's seriously considered what's written in the Torah against what's written in the "new testament" has come away not buying the general xian argument.

Yes, that's one of the major areas that differentiates Judaism from Christianity and Islam - we are not to speculate on life after death but to focus on the here and now, whereas both Christians and Muslims are vying to get that ticket to heaven and avoid hell and they see that life is all about that. As well, Judaism does not speculate on the endtimes, whereas both the Christianity and Islam do, with the latter having quite detailed notions of it.

#60 meltzerboy

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:36 PM

There are many more knowledgeable Jews than I on this forum. And perhaps they too will answer.

The notion of Mashiach is not in the Torah. Mashiach means 'anointed' as in with oil, eg when being crowned king. Even the great Cyrus of Persia was anointed by the Jews and referred to as mashiach. Not to be confused with the Mashiach. Somehow, sometime, the idea of a great person in the future who would come and redeem us, came to be, but I don't know when or how this idea came to be.

As to the Christians, my understanding is that they believe G-d sent his son, Jesus to earth, they believe Jesus was the messiah foretold in the Torah, ie in their Christian interpretation of the Torah, and their changing of words in the Torah to suit their own ideology.

The Muslims have Jesus as their prophet, plus also the Mahdi who leads the Muslim armies to victory. Islam has both Jesus and the Mahdi as the main figures at the end times.

My understanding is that Christians in general believe Jesus is the Mashiach, the son of G-d, and G-d the Father. (The latter two are really the same for them, along with the Holy Spirit: i.e. the notion of the Trinity, three forms in one.) That is, Jesus is both human and divine. What I find difficult to understand is how they formed that belief based on the notion of the Mashiach according to Jewish teaching; they must have added to it quite a bit. Of course they did, one might say; they broke away from Judaism and formed a new religion, didn't they? My question, though, is that they always attempt to justify their belief in Jesus as G-d by referring to Old Testament prophecy, which, though I am no scholar of either religion, does not appear to justify their belief. A question undoubtedly for the Catholic Forum!




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