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Did Jews Really have Anything to do with the Death of Yeshua


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#141 rvn2590

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:37 PM

Someone considers this evidence overwhelming. I don't.
Someone considers this evidence so suggestive as to thrust a certain belief upon man. I don't.
Someone considers this evidence to have been created mostly post facto. I am he.
Don't get me wrong. I think Jesus was a good homo sapien. He brought some valuable perspective to gentiles and an important warning to Jews.

Let me ask you this: do I have to believe in Jesus's miracles to believe the Christian prophecies? Because I'm not going to. The bulk of the complaint against the Jews during Jesus's time was that they refused to see his miracles. Clearly, I would not be subject to same complaint having seen no Christian miracles in my entire lifetime. Why then would I believe that Jesus is divine? Because 1.5 billion Christians, with no supernatural proof, have told me so? That seems to me a great evil when someone makes an assertion about divinity without offering a proof of equivalent divine power...

In summation: I want miracles or go away.


Miracles are not the issue.
Deuteronomy 13:2-4 "If there should stand up in your midst a prophet of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying. 'let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!' Do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HaShem your G-d is testing you to know whether you love HaShem, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul."
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#142 Shkedei Marak

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 10:06 PM

The jewish form of capital punishment was stoning. The romans crucified. You do the math.


This would be correct. The Roman Empire tried 'Yeshua' not the Jews
"Then you will begin to seek YHVH your God, and if you pursue Him with all your heart and soul, you will eventually find Him." (Deuteronomy, 4:29)

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#143 rvn2590

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 10:57 AM

Since it happened two thousand years ago, a normal response would be to just get over it if it were true. It's just an excuse for anti-semitism. If this excuse becomes non-viable, another will be found.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#144 Hur

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:49 AM

Miracles are not the issue.
Deuteronomy 13:2-4 "If there should stand up in your midst a prophet of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying. 'let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!' Do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HaShem your G-d is testing you to know whether you love HaShem, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul."


Didn't Yeshua teach (according to the Gospels) to follow all of Torah? It goes without saying that many Christians think out of ignorance and poor teaching that Jesus/Yeshua taught against following Moses when nothing of the kind can be found in his sayings. He may have argued with the Pharisees but they even argued with themselves about everything.
The Jewish leaders handed Yeshua over to the Romans to be executed as a pretender to the throne because they could not lawfully execute him or explain their actions successfully to the people who were asleep at the time. Not wanting any big trouble with millions of Jews in or outside Jerusalem (it was Passover), Pilate gave them what they wanted. That's not hard to understand why he did this.
On their part, the Jews want Jesus killed because he blasphemed and made himself equal to God as well as declared himself the Messiah and King of Israel. Salvation (from the coming judgement) was conditional on believing that Jesus was sent from the Father for that purpose. They had to believe on him to be saved from the wrath to come. For these reasons he was rejected and killed. According to the Gospels Jesus was sent to die for everyone’s sins to reconcile all men back to God...if they would believe in him. This is why Jesus' death was important. But this is no excuse for anti-Semitism or blaming the Jews for something that Jesus was sent to do anyway.
You can take parts of any Scripture and give it an anti-Semitic meaning but not in it’s complete context. Most of the believers in the 1st century were Jews and they would not badmouth themselves. The Roman-Jewish wars created an anti-Semitic Empire and the later mostly gentile church began to reflect that attitude, but never universally in all times and places.
Hur ;)
 

#145 rvn2590

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:59 AM

Didn't Yeshua teach (according to the Gospels) to follow all of Torah? It goes without saying that many Christians think out of ignorance and poor teaching that Jesus/Yeshua taught against following Moses when nothing of the kind can be found in his sayings. He may have argued with the Pharisees but they even argued with themselves about everything.
The Jewish leaders handed Yeshua over to the Romans to be executed as a pretender to the throne because they could not lawfully execute him or explain their actions successfully to the people who were asleep at the time. Not wanting any big trouble with millions of Jews in or outside Jerusalem (it was Passover), Pilate gave them what they wanted. That's not hard to understand why he did this.
On their part, the Jews want Jesus killed because he blasphemed and made himself equal to God as well as declared himself the Messiah and King of Israel. Salvation (from the coming judgement) was conditional on believing that Jesus was sent from the Father for that purpose. They had to believe on him to be saved from the wrath to come. For these reasons he was rejected and killed. According to the Gospels Jesus was sent to die for everyone’s sins to reconcile all men back to God...if they would believe in him. This is why Jesus' death was important. But this is no excuse for anti-Semitism or blaming the Jews for something that Jesus was sent to do anyway.
You can take parts of any Scripture and give it an anti-Semitic meaning but not in it’s complete context. Most of the believers in the 1st century were Jews and they would not badmouth themselves. The Roman-Jewish wars created an anti-Semitic Empire and the later mostly gentile church began to reflect that attitude, but never universally in all times and places.
Hur ;)
 


Yeshu's hanging out with the tax collectors did not win him friends either. The tax collectors were collaborators with the Roman occupier happy to put the squeeze on their own people as long as they got their cut. When you hang out with traitors to your own people you will make some enemies.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#146 ijs

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 05:22 PM

Didn't Yeshua teach (according to the Gospels) to follow all of Torah?


Depends on who you ask. One of the major tenets of Xianity is that jesus 'fulfilled' the law – which makes no sense, but functionally meaning that the law no longer applied. There are differing Xian interpretations on this, but that's basically what it comes down to.

Pilate gave them what they wanted.


This is highly unlikely. If anything, Pilate might have been inclined not to do it, for no other reason than that a couple Jews asked him to.

On their part, the Jews want Jesus killed because he blasphemed and made himself equal to God as well as declared himself the Messiah and King of Israel.


I don't find this very credible, either. If he advocated all of Torah, he would never have made such a statement. Also, there have been plenty of false messiahs, without them having been killed, and there's no reason for jesus to have been any different. Just one more nutball. It's more likely that he didn't get much of a following at all, at a time when Judaism was fractured with various splinter sects such as the Saduccees and the Essenes, so jesus was again just one more guy with a different idea.

Salvation (from the coming judgement) was conditional on believing that Jesus was sent from the Father for that purpose.


This is also an absurd claim for jesus to make – again, not in keeping with Torah. Belief and worship go only to HaShem; believing 'in' a human being is idolatry.

Or am I missing something, here?
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#147 Hur

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:56 PM

Salvation (from the coming judgement) was conditional on believing that Jesus was sent from the Father for that purpose.


This is also an absurd claim for jesus to make – again, not in keeping with Torah. Belief and worship go only to HaShem; believing 'in' a human being is idolatry.

Or am I missing something, here?



Well, you might be overlooking the obvious. Jesus doesn’t claim to just be a man (or a demigod or another god)
Jesus specifically identified himself with the burning bush and G-d saying:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am …a direct reference to

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus claims to be G-d. If he is not G-d then he is a lunatic or a seriously evil liar. Being just a good man is not an option.

Hur :)





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