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English translation for צאן


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#1 sal

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:19 PM

Anyone have an English translation for צאן

Artscroll sometimes says sheep is that right?
וְאִם-מִן-הַצֹּאן קָרְבָּנוֹ מִן-הַכְּשָׂבִים אוֹ מִן-הָעִזִּים
It doesn't seem to apply here.

#2 moe says

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:24 PM

flock

(or flocked animals, sometimes sheep sometimes other beheimos dakos)
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#3 sal

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:26 PM

flock

(or flocked animals, sometimes sheep sometimes other beheimos dakos)


That would be עדר
beheimos dakos is right, but is there an english word for that.

#4 moe says

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:29 PM

That would be עדר

immaterial.
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#5 sal

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:31 PM

immaterial.


I didn't get that.

#6 moe says

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:33 PM

I didn't get that.

you're arguing, based on the presence of a synonym, what couldn't possibly be the definition of a word?
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#7 sal

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:37 PM

you're arguing, based on the presence of a synonym, what couldn't possibly be the definition of a word?


Is there a difference between צאן and עדר

I understand the definition of צאן
I just want to know if there is a english word, like בקר is cattle.

#8 moe says

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:43 PM

Is there a difference between צאן and עדר

surely.

but that difference doesn't necessarily translate into different english words.

in this case there is a difference, that the word tzon is applicable also to the specific animals which are "flocked" ie. sheep and goats. this is not so for the word עדר.

I understand the definition of צאן
I just want to know if there is a english word, like בקר is cattle.

ah. iow, a word for beheima daka? not that I know of.
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#9 sal

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:44 PM

surely.

but that difference doesn't necessarily translate into different english words.

in this case there is a difference, that the word tzon is applicable also to the specific animals which are "flocked" ie. sheep and goats. this is not so for the word עדר.

I understand that.
It has a definition, but no translation, like בקר is cattle.

#10 moe says

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:47 PM

I understand that.
It has a definition, but no translation, like בקר is cattle.

see above.
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#11 sal

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:52 PM

see above.


I noticed. I was posting while you were.

#12 moe says

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:56 PM

I noticed. I was posting while you were.

c'est la vie.
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#13 Snag

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:22 PM

Anyone have an English translation for צאן

Artscroll sometimes says sheep is that right?
וְאִם-מִן-הַצֹּאן קָרְבָּנוֹ מִן-הַכְּשָׂבִים אוֹ מִן-הָעִזִּים
It doesn't seem to apply here.

ovine animals.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#14 Dan

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 08:03 PM

ovine animals.

What's the english word for ovine? :p
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#15 sal

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 08:39 PM

ovine animals.


Not a perfect translation.
Does it make sense to say I have ovine in my yard?
It works by cattle(בקר).

#16 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 04:52 AM

The problem is that Tzon includes both sheep AND goats, Cattle is just another word for cows... I don't believe there IS an English word that would suffice here. Flock is probably the best we can do...
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#17 sal

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 09:44 AM

The problem is that Tzon includes both sheep AND goats, Cattle is just another word for cows... I don't believe there IS an English word that would suffice here. Flock is probably the best we can do...


cattle includes oxen.

#18 Snag

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 10:11 AM

What's the english word for ovine? :p

:biggrin:

Not a perfect translation.
Does it make sense to say I have ovine in my yard?
It works by cattle(בקר).

it makes sense to say i have ovine animals in my yard; since ovine is an adjective, it needs a noun to be chal on. this has long been my position with respect to "bovine", however, i have been shown that some books do use bovine as a noun ("as is the case with all bovines", for example), in which case ovine would be able to be used in the way you mentioned (i have ovines in my yard, or i have an ovine in my yard).
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#19 grend123

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 10:19 AM

Chinese has the same thing: yang means sheep or goat. Apparently there's no good english translation so people do the same thing as Artscroll.

http://www.cjvlang.c.../sheepgoat.html
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#20 Savannah

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 11:26 AM

Livestock?




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