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tzedakah u-mishpat


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#1 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 09:02 AM

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#2 spectra

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 11:21 AM

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#3 spectra

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 11:35 AM

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#4 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:38 PM

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#5 spectra

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:45 PM

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#6 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:54 PM

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#7 Moshi

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:56 PM

No, seriously...what is meant by tzedakah and mishpat? I doubt tzedakah in scripture means what we take it to mean today in terms of giving charity to poor people and to torah institutions. And how does an individual implement mishpat?


why not?
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#8 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 03:02 PM

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#9 spectra

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 03:19 PM

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#10 Moshi

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 03:45 PM

The Stone Chumash says that this is prooftext for Yevamot 79a with 3 traits of Jewish people, and for Rambam Hil Matanot Aniyum 10:1 to practice the mitzvah of tzedaka more than any other.... Now looking it up in the Birnbaum Mishneh Torah, they actually translate the pasuk as "doing what is right".
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#11 Snag

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:22 PM

tzedakah biblically/etymologically is the feminine form of tzedek, which itself is a less strict form of justice than mishpat (let's say justice vs. judgment), and the femininity softens it further. so, while it does not, as you pointed out, necessarily refer only to charity in the monetary sense, it does jibe with the truer meaning of charity (as in the common phrase "Xtian charity", which does not refer to financial assisstance). so i understand this verse (again, in the peshuto shel mikra) to mean that they will practice charitable acts as well as judgment.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#12 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 05:04 AM

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#13 rvn2590

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 05:39 AM

No, seriously...what is meant by tzedakah and mishpat? I doubt tzedakah in scripture means what we take it to mean today in terms of giving charity to poor people and to torah institutions. And how does an individual implement mishpat?


Hashem gives us a warning about reform style tzedakah by this. Reform Jews, being Jews , have a heart which inclines them to give charity. This is a warning that it is not true tzedekah when one mails in a check to Planned Parenthood or some other leftist organization. Tzedekah must be given bamishpat. In a just fashion promoting goals compatible with Judaism and not as a hilul HaShem. There is good tzedekah and bad tzedekah this is an instruction that reminds us of this.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#14 Snag

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:23 AM

With regard to mishpat, is that a trait incumbant on the individual or on the community and therefore on the individual indirectly as a member of the community?

i'd say it's incumbent upon the individual as well, to make sure to practice judgment in his own life, to judge his own actions stringently.

Hashem gives us a warning about reform style tzedakah by this. Reform Jews, being Jews , have a heart which inclines them to give charity. This is a warning that it is not true tzedekah when one mails in a check to Planned Parenthood or some other leftist organization. Tzedekah must be given bamishpat. In a just fashion promoting goals compatible with Judaism and not as a hilul HaShem. There is good tzedekah and bad tzedekah this is an instruction that reminds us of this.

???? i'd say supporting planned parenthood is actually a good way to support societal mishpat, since statistics show that the rise in unwanted pregnancies seen through to birth corresponds directly to a rise in crime rates about 15-20 years later.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#15 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:35 AM

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#16 Snag

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:49 AM

You think the pesukim are referring to things like being dan lechaf zechut? I don't.

no. what i mean is that avraham will teach his offspring to measure an judge their own actions, weighing them on the scale of their intellects to decide whether they are G-d's Will or mere self-gratification.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#17 rvn2590

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 02:59 PM

???? i'd say supporting planned parenthood is actually a good way to support societal mishpat, since statistics show that the rise in unwanted pregnancies seen through to birth corresponds directly to a rise in crime rates about 15-20 years later.


To word it in a more neutral fashion: Jews by their very nature are compassionate and want to help other people by giving charity. Some charitable causes may sound good on the surface, but not actually be promoting justice (mishpat) in the world.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#18 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:54 PM

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