Jump to content


Photo

No Giving Gifts


  • Please log in to reply
74 replies to this topic

#21 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

Kalashnikover_Rebbe

    fine, nice looking, batampte Ben Torah

  • Members
  • 26,049 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:27 PM

I don't understand this multiple weddings a week concept. I maybe get invited to one wedding a year, so I don't understand the 'too many simchas' aspect, but regardless, I see your point, KR.

Let's say you are a yeshiva guy, or a newlywed yourself and your friends are all of marriageable age. Or have a large extended family and are expected to attend...
[/flirting]

#22 int

int

    .

  • Members
  • 7,388 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:34 PM

TACKY TACKY TACKY. Don't have a wedding you can't afford. Don't invite anyone if you're not willing to foot the cost of their seat 100%. The insanely high cost of today's weddings is the insanity of the parents and the couple. It does not obligate the guests. You can do a wedding for $500 if you do in a shul with a small spread. And that's as kosher as anything else.


No Razie, it's not tacky. You don't have a wedding for $500 in a shul with lox and bagels, because then you become the talk of the town, are considered nebach, and are not 'like everyone else'. Don't tell me you don't recognize the value of being accepted as a normal part of society, especially in frum communities. Nobody wants to look like a shnorrer, or a cheapskate, or a nebach case. And everyone deserves a wedding that is at least _on par_ with the accepted standards of the community. How do you think the kallah will feel in a shul with bagels? How do you think the chosson will feel?
In reality, practically, there is really no alternative but to have a decent wedding. Not extravagant or lavish, but decent - in a normal hall, with normal food, with normal music, etc. And that kind of wedding just happens to cost alot of money these days.

Sure no one is obligated to give gifts. But like I said before, honor and a basic human desire to look decent in the eyes of other people causes the couple to spend alot of money on the wedding, at a time when they perhaps need money the most, and it is only proper that those who come to their wedding help out to offset the costs.

#23 Razie

Razie

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:34 PM

Also in the long run doesn't everyone "break even".
Most people get married once, and then it's "their turn" to make the simcha for everyone else, and the rest of the time other people pay.

Unless you have 15 kids, or are REALLY popular and attend 3 weddings a week, I would think that most people more or less "break even" or even pay LESS than they eat in the course of their lifetimes....

Well, not really, because weddings can be sinkholes. SOOOO much more money goes into a wedding (or can) than the person attending would be willing to pay. Especially with the fixed costs of renting the hall, things like onsite hair and makeup and photography, and whatever the flowers cost .... etc. Weddings can easily run hundreds of dollars per person for events where the person would consider the experience in food&alcohol worth 1/10 of what it actually cost the person throwing the wedding.

#24 Guest_Shuli_*

Guest_Shuli_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:35 PM

.

#25 Razie

Razie

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:39 PM

No Razie, it's not tacky. You don't have a wedding for $500 in a shul with lox and bagels, because then you become the talk of the town, are considered nebach, and are not 'like everyone else'. Don't tell me you don't recognize the value of being accepted as a normal part of society, especially in frum communities. Nobody wants to look like a shnorrer, or a cheapskate, or a nebach case. And everyone deserves a wedding that is at least _on par_ with the accepted standards of the community. How do you think the kallah will feel in a shul with bagels? How do you think the chosson will feel?
In reality, practically, there is really no alternative but to have a decent wedding. Not extravagant or lavish, but decent - in a normal hall, with normal food, with normal music, etc. And that kind of wedding just happens to cost alot of money these days.

Sure no one is obligated to give gifts. But like I said before, honor and a basic human desire to look decent in the eyes of other people causes the couple to spend alot of money on the wedding, at a time when they perhaps need money the most, and it is only proper that those who come to their wedding help out to offset the costs.

So it's a community problem.

I'd have loved to have a wedding for $500 in a shul with lox and bagels. ok, not the shul. But pizza and beer around the house. My engagement party on my roof was what *I* wanted in a wedding, and though I spent some money on it, I could have had a similar experience for 1/5 the cost.

Everyone does not deserve a wedding on part with the accepted standards of the community. If you can't afford to fit in to that community, move to a different one. Or learn that if you're not as wealthy as your neighbors, you should get over your "feelings" about whether your flowers look as good as theirs did. "Decent" to you means a hall and food and a live band? Wedding are SUCH a waste of money. It's about the couple getting married and their friends and families. Not comparing it to what the neighbors did. If you can afford a grand party, great. And if you can't, you don't "deserve" for your friends to pay for you to have the hall and live band so that you look as good as your richer neighbors.

#26 Savannah

Savannah

    ~*~ pixie smile ~*~

  • Members
  • 20,505 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:44 PM

No Razie, it's not tacky. You don't have a wedding for $500 in a shul with lox and bagels, because then you become the talk of the town, are considered nebach, and are not 'like everyone else'. Don't tell me you don't recognize the value of being accepted as a normal part of society, especially in frum communities. Nobody wants to look like a shnorrer, or a cheapskate, or a nebach case. And everyone deserves a wedding that is at least _on par_ with the accepted standards of the community. How do you think the kallah will feel in a shul with bagels? How do you think the chosson will feel?

Everyone? Really? I think eloping sounds so romantic. Or a small wedding on a lake in a park. :wub:

The best weddings I've ever been to have been small. Not the nicest, but the best -- the most meaningful.

#27 int

int

    .

  • Members
  • 7,388 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:44 PM

Everyone does not deserve a wedding on part with the accepted standards of the community. If you can't afford to fit in to that community, move to a different one. Or learn that if you're not as wealthy as your neighbors, you should get over your "feelings" about whether your flowers look as good as theirs did.


Step back and read over what you just wrote. Move to a different community? Really? The couple whose parents, grandparents, teachers, friends, everyone they know, live in that community, should just get up and move to another town before their wedding and have a bagels ceremony in some shul? I'm not even sure where to begin, so I'll leave it here.

#28 NY-LON

NY-LON

    Toddler Chaser

  • Members
  • 3,848 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:45 PM

I don't think that community expectations justify being tacky. I don't like the pay for your plate mentality. We'd all be a lot better off if we'd come out and say "I can't afford a 400 person catered simcha" instead of having one to keep up with the Cohens and hoping our friends foot the bill. Break the cycle. Have a simcha you can afford, and accept the gifts for themselves.

(FWIW I do think the polite thing to do is give a gift. But I don't like making it an admission ticket, or worse, calibrating your gift to the cost of the simcha--so your friends that can't afford a fancy shmancy wedding get shafted twice.
Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
Coincidence does not imply correlation.

Warning: ever-present baby may result in mis-reading of posts.

#29 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:48 PM

Step back and read over what you just wrote. Move to a different community? Really? The couple whose parents, grandparents, teachers, friends, everyone they know, live in that community, should just get up and move to another town before their wedding and have a bagels ceremony in some shul? I'm not even sure where to begin, so I'll leave it here.


There are many people that sponsor a wedding in Israel the same night they make their daughter's wedding in Brooklyn. (It makes them feel less guilty for spending so much on chopped liver.) The cost of such a sponsorship (and this covers the cost of the FULL wedding, in a respectable setting - a hall, decent food - chicken, music (one man band), and photographer (stills only - tv and computers are asser anyway) is $7000.

There are people that make weddings her for even less than that.

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#30 Razie

Razie

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:51 PM

Step back and read over what you just wrote. Move to a different community? Really? The couple whose parents, grandparents, teachers, friends, everyone they know, live in that community, should just get up and move to another town before their wedding and have a bagels ceremony in some shul? I'm not even sure where to begin, so I'll leave it here.

Didja note the big old "Or" in there? The move to a different community OR get over the fact that you can't afford the standards of it so don't feel entitled to the same as the neighbors?

By the way. For your accounting - my engagement party cost more than $50 per attendee. Not kidding. With the bar, staffers, food, roof rental. So if a couple showed up, I figure they owe me, what, $100? Man, a lot of people owe me. And seriously, that per-person cost for an engagement party is actually on the low end in my demographic and neighborhood. I was just keeping up with my social group and community - and on the lower end of it.

#31 Red Hare

Red Hare

    When this old you are, look as good you will not !

  • Members
  • 5,238 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:53 PM

I personally think a wedding is a more gift-worthy event than other simchas, basically because it's Hachnosses Kallah to set the new couple up in life; but the truth is that every simcha costs money to make; where do you draw the line - when do you send a gift and when do you not?

New baby
Sholom Zochor
Bris
Vachnacht
Pidyon HaBen
Upsheren
Friends' kids' birthdays
Friends' birthdays
Bar and Bas Mitzvah
Engagement
Lechaim
Vort
Shower
Shabbos kallah
Wedding
Sheva Brachos
"There's a stroller called Phil and Ted's? Is that the kind for most excellent adventuresome babies?" Sweet

"I discovered that all the participating members here are 'black sheep' in their own circles. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked." Silent J

"H.com becomes a proverbial Hotel California for many of us" Nooch

#32 GoodEats!

GoodEats!

    Masmid

  • Members
  • 256 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:54 PM

I would want people to come and enjoy the wedding that I am paying for and enjoy themselves. It would never occur to me people would not come because of a silly thing like a gift and I'd probably be insulted that they declined my invitation.

#33 FYI

FYI

    Naive or Clueless?

  • Members
  • 16,184 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:00 PM

I personally think a wedding is a more gift-worthy event than other simchas, basically because it's Hachnosses Kallah to set the new couple up in life; but the truth is that every simcha costs money to make; where do you draw the line - when do you send a gift and when do you not?

New baby - yes, gift
Sholom Zochor - a dessert/fruit platter or similar
Bris - same as baby gift
Vachnacht - no
Pidyon HaBen - no
Upsheren - yes, for kids
Friends' kids' birthdays - yes, if invited and attending
Friends' birthdays - yes, if invited and attending
Bar and Bas Mitzvah - yes, if invited and attending
Engagement - no
Lechaim - no
Vort - no
Shower - Yes, if invited and attending
Shabbos kallah - a dessert/fruit platter or similar
Wedding - Yes, if invited and attending
Sheva Brachos - no


Oh! and in response to Pinchas, I think it's possible my wedding cost around $7K. I'm trying to remember where I put the pricing sheet, but based on numbers I remember I'm pretty sure it is very possible.
Many people wish they could change their life, when all they really need to do is change their attitude towards life. - Sharon

#34 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:01 PM

Oh! and in response to Pinchas, I think it's possible my wedding cost around $7K. I'm trying to remember where I put the pricing sheet, but based on numbers I remember I'm pretty sure it is very possible.


That's impressive. Vast vast majority of Jewish weddings in America run well into 5 digits. (Remember to include the chosson's side cost.)

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#35 int

int

    .

  • Members
  • 7,388 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:02 PM

Didja note the big old "Or" in there? The move to a different community OR get over the fact that you can't afford the standards of it so don't feel entitled to the same as the neighbors?


It has nothing to do with feeling entitled to the same standards as neighbors. It has everything to do though with not being perceived by the community as a nebach case for having a cheap wedding. Or looked down upon. Or being talked about behind your back.

I don't know if I can explain this very simple sentiment any further. To me it's obvious.

#36 FYI

FYI

    Naive or Clueless?

  • Members
  • 16,184 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:03 PM

That's impressive. Vast vast majority of Jewish weddings in America run well into 5 digits. (Remember to include the chosson's side cost.)

I AM including the chossons side costs. It for sure was done as cheap, but 'normal' as possible. I.e. KP was some cake/water, no shmorg. Dinner was basics, we did have 1 bottle of wine per table, I think. Flower arrangements from chupah, only bouquet for me, I think. I really need to find the pricing sheet. I"m 99.9% sure I kept it. (but where?!?!)
Many people wish they could change their life, when all they really need to do is change their attitude towards life. - Sharon

#37 FYI

FYI

    Naive or Clueless?

  • Members
  • 16,184 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:09 PM

To clarify, I could be completely mistaken about the numbers, but I'm trying to do computations in my head and I think that makes sense. I really need to find paper to make sure I'm not completely off.
Many people wish they could change their life, when all they really need to do is change their attitude towards life. - Sharon

#38 Razie

Razie

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:12 PM

It has nothing to do with feeling entitled to the same standards as neighbors. It has everything to do though with not being perceived by the community as a nebach case for having a cheap wedding. Or looked down upon. Or being talked about behind your back.

I don't know if I can explain this very simple sentiment any further. To me it's obvious.

If the community is going to perceive you like for doing something modest and responsible for a wedding, and that's the community you want to not look bad in front of, so instead you create a situation where you will do the same to people who would show up to your wedding when they can't afford the gift .... to me this is obvious too. You want to be in the community. An invited guest wants to be at your wedding.

You have to throw a big wedding you can't afford and invite people who have to give you gifts they can't afford all because of some cycle that makes perfect sense ... something about not being talked about behind your back by a community that you want acceptance from, and they way you do this is by passing on that judgement to the guests you invite to your wedding.

This is disgusting.

#39 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:17 PM

To clarify, I could be completely mistaken about the numbers, but I'm trying to do computations in my head and I think that makes sense. I really need to find paper to make sure I'm not completely off.


Most Bar Mitzvah's today cost at least $7000. I find it hard to believe you did it for that in any of the well known wedding halls. Did you have photographers? Orchestra?

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#40 int

int

    .

  • Members
  • 7,388 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:19 PM

If the community is going to perceive you like for doing something modest and responsible for a wedding, and that's the community you want to not look bad in front of, so instead you create a situation where you will do the same to people who would show up to your wedding when they can't afford the gift .... to me this is obvious too. You want to be in the community. An invited guest wants to be at your wedding.

You have to throw a big wedding you can't afford and invite people who have to give you gifts they can't afford all because of some cycle that makes perfect sense ... something about not being talked about behind your back by a community that you want acceptance from, and they way you do this is by passing on that judgement to the guests you invite to your wedding.

This is disgusting.


I'm not arguing here about whether the community is right or not. I'm just stating the facts - this is what it's like out there. Like it or not. Sure, a person would like to break the cycle and make a modest wedding - but in doing so, he will inevitably be perceived badly and feel badly. About his own wedding - something that happens only once (hopefully) in his life. He will also upset his bride. And cause shame to the family - whether it's justified or not.

And I'm not passing judgement on the guests or requiring them to give gifts. No one is requiring anyone to do anything. All the guests are welcomed and appreciated. My point is that the guests should themselves realize that the wedding costs money, there is no such thing as a free lunch, that the couple did pay alot of $$$ for it out of their own pocket, and that it will only be befitting to help them offset these costs. That's all.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users