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women learning gemara


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#1 funmom

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:19 PM

Why can't women learn gemara? I know in some 'modern' circles, women do learn it but why is it frowned upon in other circles?

#2 Savannah

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:45 PM

The real reason: To perpetuate the patriarchy.

The reason they give: Because it says that to teach a woman Gemara is to teach her tiflut.

#3 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:46 PM

Because the Gemara itself says it is "tiflus"...

Some girls I knew in college took special pleasure in learning that Gemara inside...
[/flirting]

#4 rvn2590

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 02:49 PM

A woman learning the gemara is lack of modesty. Also It damages the social structure of the community by challenging the traditional roles men and women have.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#5 Savannah

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 02:51 PM

The real reason: To perpetuate the patriarchy.

The reason they give: Because it says that to teach a woman Gemara is to teach her tiflut.

Because the Gemara itself says it is "tiflus"...

Some girls I knew in college took special pleasure in learning that Gemara inside...

A woman learning the gemara is lack of modesty. Also It damages the social structure of the community by challenging the traditional roles men and women have.

:rofl:

#6 Snag

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:04 AM

Because the Gemara itself says it is "tiflus"...

Some girls I knew in college took special pleasure in learning that Gemara inside...

some girls i knew took special pleasure in tiflus...
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#7 Razie

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:06 AM

maybe she's a niddah when learning gemara? :p

#8 Moshi

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:27 AM

A woman learning the gemara is lack of modesty.


How so?
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#9 Rentsy

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:53 AM

maybe she's a niddah when learning gemara? :p

Divrei Torah aino mekablim tuma!

Seriously, as someone in those "modern" circles, Rav Amital has a sicha where he paskens l'halakha that because avodat hashem is done with whatever is most important in every day and age, avodat hashem bizman hazeh is through the intellect. Therefore, although patur from the obligation of talmud Torah, women, through the chiyuv of avodat hashem, are mamash chayav in Talmud Torah. As per the Rambam, who brings the Sifri that avodat hashem is both teffilah and talmud torah.

Anyone who thinks Rav Amital wasn't serious should look no farther than Migdal Oz.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#10 rvn2590

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:14 PM

The recent Gadol hador HaRav Eliyahu ruled that women learning gemara is prohibited because it will lead to a blurring of the roles between men and women. Rav Aviner ruled as well that it is prohibited because women are not suited for it.

http://www.ynetnews....3412203,00.html
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#11 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:16 PM

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#12 rvn2590

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:18 PM

I recently learned on h.com that what far away gedolim say is irrelevant to North Americans (in the context of that one should not work).


h-com has it's limitations. "For from Tzion the Torah will come forth and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem."
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#13 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:19 PM

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#14 Moshi

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:42 PM

The recent Gadol hador HaRav Eliyahu ruled that women learning gemara is prohibited because it will lead to a blurring of the roles between men and women. Rav Aviner ruled as well that it is prohibited because women are not suited for it.

http://www.ynetnews....3412203,00.html


Are men not suited for learning Gemara also prohibited from it?
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#15 rvn2590

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:00 PM

Are men not suited for learning Gemara also prohibited from it?


I don't know, but the principle of men and women in Judaism having different roles is well established. Women are described as having a different nature than man and are so different in their thinking from men that they are compared to members of another nation.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#16 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:10 PM

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#17 rvn2590

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:15 PM

There some distance between "men and women have different roles" and "women learning gemara is not tznius".


(This quote is copied and pasted from an interesting debate recorded in the link listed below the quote.)

Harav Hagaon Elya Svei stated in a speech: "The Torah entrusts its greatest duty to women - the task of 'repairing the world' by building future generations and with this preserving the eternal purity of the Jewish people...Tznius must be the foundation of the Jewish home. The essence of womanhood is tznius..." From this we learn that there is a measure of mutual exclusivity between women's tznius and women's principal role as akeres bayis on the one hand, and Torah learning on the other. Tznius is the ikar, the inyon in which to immerse ourselves. Torah learning is tofel, useful to the Jewish woman to the extent that it serves her role as ezer k'negdo and mother. To discuss exceptional supermothers, a feminist myth that was long ago debunked, is superfluous. To encourage young women of marriageable age to immerse themselves in consuming careers be it chesed or otherwise, is not Torahdik hadrocho for the bas Yisroel. Her priority chesed and her consuming "career" is to take care of her own family. I have witnessed too many homes and children neglected by women running off to the beis medresh.

http://www.berotbata.../womentorah.htm
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#18 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:19 PM

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#19 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:24 PM

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#20 Snag

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:43 PM

I recently learned on h.com that what far away gedolim say is irrelevant to North Americans (in the context of that one should not work).

that's not exactly what was said, at least as i understood it. what was said is that the gedolim in eretz yisroel (or their 'handlers', rachmana litzlan) seem to be critically unaware of the fundamental differences between american hareidi society and israeli hareidi society.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain




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