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women learning gemara


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#21 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:44 PM

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#22 Snag

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:54 PM

oh, ok. :)

:drinks:
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

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#23 starwolf

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:08 AM

The recent Gadol hador HaRav Eliyahu ruled that women learning gemara is prohibited because it will lead to a blurring of the roles between men and women. Rav Aviner ruled as well that it is prohibited because women are not suited for it.

http://www.ynetnews....3412203,00.html


Rav Soloveitchik's position on women learning gemara was quite clear, and girls learn gemara today in the school that he built.

As for Rav Aviner, are you sure that you wish to go there? He would have men and women completely separated if he could.
Let us just say that his piskei halacha on women should not be trusted, because he is nogei'a b'davar.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#24 starwolf

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:16 AM

that's not exactly what was said, at least as i understood it. what was said is that the gedolim in eretz yisroel (or their 'handlers', rachmana litzlan) seem to be critically unaware of the fundamental differences between american hareidi society and israeli hareidi society.


They also seem unaware of the even more fundamental differences between Israeli society and that of the hareidim who simply happen to live in Israel.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#25 TimeRebbe

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:21 AM

that's not exactly what was said, at least as i understood it. what was said is that the gedolim in eretz yisroel (or their 'handlers', rachmana litzlan) seem to be critically unaware of the fundamental differences between american hareidi society and israeli hareidi society.


Which is why amercian jewry often relies on Rav Moshe and Rav Soloveitchik for guidance - and for more current issues, there are plenty of gedolai torah in NA that follow Rav Moshe's or the Rav's standards in their own psak. Now it would be interesting to know what exactly they held in regards to women working; i would imagine that the Rav was in favor (were it financially necessary)?
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#26 starwolf

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:24 AM

According to that, any torah learning is problematic, as is attending any shiur after childbirth. That's not specific to gemara study.

Personally, I think the biggest shandah is when moms involve themselves with chinuch. Chinuch [granted, it's a machloket Rashi and tosefot, but better to be machmir] is an obligation on the father, not the mother. I think it's a shandah when people mess up assigned roles and the mom participates in chinuch of children.

It's also a shandah when women work. And when women go off to shul. The whole world is topsy turvy.


You forgot to mention women voting.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#27 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:14 AM

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#28 Moshi

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:17 AM

I have witnessed too many homes and children neglected by women running off to the beis medresh.


HA!

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The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#29 starwolf

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:23 AM

And learning to read and write.


yep. it all starts there.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#30 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:29 AM

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#31 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:03 AM

I miss the days of women being chattel.

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find yourself a community where they still are...
[/flirting]

#32 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:15 AM

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#33 starwolf

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:32 AM

I miss the days of women being chattel.


I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find yourself a community where they still are...



nah, he just wants a little sympathy.
Can one of you ladies on the forums peel him a grape or something?

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#34 moe says

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 11:37 AM

I recently learned on h.com that what far away gedolim say is irrelevant to North Americans (in the context of that one should not work).

Do you not believe that members of a community should live by their received and established beliefs, psakim, and practices confidently, and proudly?

I have observed a lack of confidence amongst mo communities, manifest either as a need to laud and aspire to, or otherwise to attack and defame the right, but I didn't realize that said uncertainty was a policy that anyone would actually defend.

Regardless, rw'ers would proudly tell you that this psak of R' Amital, shlita, does not represent our received mesorah, and that it is, therefore, completely irrelevant to members of our communities on a practical level, if not fascinating on a theoretical level.

Rentsy- what is the migdal oz you refer to?
יושב בשמים ישחק השׁם ילעג למו

#35 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:09 PM

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#36 starwolf

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:38 AM

Although in fairness, joking and agendas aside, R. Kook rules women may not vote.


Yes, and Rav Uziel paskened differently, and that psak was generally accepted.

Even hareidi women vote. Of course, it is assumed that they vote like their husbands tell them (and their husbands are assumed to vote as their rabbanim instruct).
The assumption is that that way they get twice as many votes. And that practical reason is enough for them to bypass their own rule against women voting.
Funny how that works out, right?

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#37 starwolf

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:42 AM

Do you not believe that members of a community should live by their received and established beliefs, psakim, and practices confidently, and proudly?

I have observed a lack of confidence amongst mo communities, manifest either as a need to laud and aspire to, or otherwise to attack and defame the right, but I didn't realize that said uncertainty was a policy that anyone would actually defend.

Regardless, rw'ers would proudly tell you that this psak of R' Amital, shlita, does not represent our received mesorah, and that it is, therefore, completely irrelevant to members of our communities on a practical level, if not fascinating on a theoretical level.

Rentsy- what is the migdal oz you refer to?


That same attitude was held by the Rav of Modern Orthodoxy, and he made sure to set a personal example.

Tell me, do you accept the piskei halacha of those Israeli authorities? The ones against secular studies, the internet, MP4 devices, etc? Do you think that they are something to aspire to, even if they are not possible in practical terms? Or do you think that they are irrelevant?

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#38 Rentsy

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 01:53 PM

Moe, the fact that you haven't heard of Migdal Oz doesn't show anything bad, it just indicates that we live in different sides of the Jewish world.

Migdal Oz is Gush for Girls. They have a beit midrash, not a library. And yes, they do Gemara.

And clearly there are subgroups in society that do not serve God with their intellect. For such a subgroup, women learning Gemara would clearly be bizarre and innapropriate.

*Starts humming the Rabbi Nachman song "L'hashlich hachochma min ha moach"*
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#39 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:44 PM

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#40 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:47 PM

Well, I'm actually arranging for R. Aviner to give a pre-chanukah shiur in my shul in a few weeks. Maybe I should ask him if the women should stay home so as not to breach tznius standards by going to shul for a shiur.

Or ask him why he still poskens halacha and is involved in "horaah" when several batei din assured him from doing so....
[/flirting]




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