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#41 Pinchas

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:21 PM

The fact remains, Migdal Oz and Midreshet Lindenbaum included, most women don't actually "learn" gemara.

This is because, most men today don't even "learn" gemara. The learning that everyone who assers women from doing is a deep, deep learning where it will engulf the woman so much that it the only thing she will focus on. Once upon a time, there were a few men that learned Torah this way (think Rabbi Akiva who totally cut himself off from everything for years!) Even in our dor there are some that still do, but they are far a few between... so this is really an academic debate.

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#42 qgh

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:31 PM

The fact remains, Migdal Oz and Midreshet Lindenbaum included, most women don't actually "learn" gemara.

This is because, most men today don't even "learn" gemara. The learning that everyone who assers women from doing is a deep, deep learning where it will engulf the woman so much that it the only thing she will focus on. Once upon a time, there were a few men that learned Torah this way (think Rabbi Akiva who totally cut himself off from everything for years!) Even in our dor there are some that still do, but they are far a few between... so this is really an academic debate.


So you would agree that the type of learning we do do today (at least 90% of us) is ok for woman because it is not real gmara learning. In other words it is ok for women to attend the daf yomi or learn Gmara high school or midrasha.

#43 Pinchas

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:08 PM

So you would agree that the type of learning we do do today (at least 90% of us) is ok for woman because it is not real gmara learning. In other words it is ok for women to attend the daf yomi or learn Gmara high school or midrasha.


Yeah, but, shhhh, don't tell them that! If they know it's something that's not really forbidden to them they might stop.

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#44 moe says

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:13 PM

I seem to remember that the Rambam himself says that nashim (and ktanim) are not in any way incapable of grasping havayos rava and abayei (halachic sugyos) and that it is the higher, secret chachmos which they are precluded from studying.

I think this one's from the mishneh torah.
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#45 sal

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:21 PM

rambam talmud torah 1 13
אשה שלמדה תורה יש לה שכר אבל אינו כשכר האיש. מפני שלא נצטוית.

#46 moe says

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:37 PM

rambam talmud torah 1 13
אשה שלמדה תורה יש לה שכר אבל אינו כשכר האיש. מפני שלא נצטוית.

no, that's not it.

that rambam goes on to quote the gemaras about how women shouldn't be taught, because of anius daatan, they will be motzi divrei torah to divrei havai, there's another place, where he's contrasting havayos abayei vrava with maasei breshis, merkave (if memory serves)
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#47 moe says

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:59 PM

here it is:
yesodei hatorah, 4:13

ועניני ארבעה פרקים אלו שבחמש מצות האלו הם שחכמים הראשונים קוראין אותו פרדס כמו שאמרו ארבעה נכנסו לפרדס. ואע"פ שגדולי ישראל היו וחכמים גדולים היו לא כולם היה בהן כח לידע ולהשיג כל הדברים על בוריין. ואני אומר שאין ראוי לטייל בפרדס אלא מי שנתמלא כריסו לחם ובשר. ולחם ובשר הוא לידע האסור והמותר וכיוצא בהם משאר המצות. ואע"פ שדברים אלו דבר קטן קראו אותן חכמים שהרי אמרו חכמים דבר גדול מעשה מרכבה ודבר קטן הוויות דאביי ורבא. אעפ"כ ראויין הן להקדימן. שהן מיישבין דעתו של אדם תחלה. ועוד שהם הטובה הגדולה שהשפיע הקב"ה ליישוב העולם הזה כדי לנחול חיי העולם הבא. ואפשר שידעם הכל קטן וגדול איש ואשה בעל לב רחב ובעל לב קצר:


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#48 starwolf

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 12:42 AM

The fact remains, Migdal Oz and Midreshet Lindenbaum included, most women don't actually "learn" gemara.

This is because, most men today don't even "learn" gemara. The learning that everyone who assers women from doing is a deep, deep learning where it will engulf the woman so much that it the only thing she will focus on. Once upon a time, there were a few men that learned Torah this way (think Rabbi Akiva who totally cut himself off from everything for years!) Even in our dor there are some that still do, but they are far a few between... so this is really an academic debate.


Actually, I agree with you. (Did the sun rise in the west today or something?)

However, if the hareidi world agreed with you, they would then have no objections to girls learning gemara in their schools. We see, however, that that is not the case, even for a few exceptional girls.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#49 Pinchas

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 03:24 AM

Actually, I agree with you. (Did the sun rise in the west today or something?)

However, if the hareidi world agreed with you, they would then have no objections to girls learning gemara in their schools. We see, however, that that is not the case, even for a few exceptional girls.


That's just for their ego.

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For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#50 politico

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:52 PM

I have witnessed too many homes and children neglected by women running off to the beis medresh.


According to that, any torah learning is problematic, as is attending any shiur after childbirth. That's not specific to gemara study.

yes, upon reading it, i had flashbacks to seminary, where girls certainly did not learn gemara and probably would have been blackballed for doing so, but were very much encouraged to essentially be kovea itim and near-constantly engage in learning stuff that was OPS-approved for girls to learn.
zinh.

#51 Rentsy

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 03:04 AM

[overheard last night]

"Do you guys have any women teaching at your yeshiva?"

"No."

"Why is that?"

"Well, I think the ideal is women teaching women and men teaching men."

"Yea, but men are at the top of the field, because what woman would dedicate her life to a role in which she's shackled [by the oppressive OPS]

"That's why I said ideal."

"As in, we're not there yet."

-

The opinions about a woman's role, knowing and teaching Gemara, are very, very strong, and I would just cautiously note that it goes both ways.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#52 Monte Cristo

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:01 PM

The recent Gadol hador HaRav Eliyahu ruled that women learning gemara is prohibited because it will lead to a blurring of the roles between men and women. Rav Aviner ruled as well that it is prohibited because women are not suited for it.

http://www.ynetnews....3412203,00.html


Praytell is learning TaNaCH asssur for men since learning Navi is "woman's thing*"? If so I'm in serious trouble............

*A sad commentary of Hareidi society (at least in Israel) is the joke that Hareidim haven't even heard of TaNaCH
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#53 Razie

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:19 PM

it is the higher, secret chachmos which they are precluded from studying.

This sounds like scientology

#54 rvn2590

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:59 PM

Praytell is learning TaNaCH asssur for men since learning Navi is "woman's thing*"? If so I'm in serious trouble............

*A sad commentary of Hareidi society (at least in Israel) is the joke that Hareidim haven't even heard of TaNaCH



Actually the requirement is gimel paamim for the weekly parsha so it can be assumed that all Jewish males are at least know Humash.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#55 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:49 PM

....

#56 moe says

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:16 AM

This sounds like scientology

I'm using general terms because the rambam (my source here) says it refers to philosophy, while the standard understanding, today, is that massei merkava, breishis refer to different branches of kabbalah.
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#57 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:10 PM

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#58 Moshi

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:37 PM

Torah Study for Women
Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein

Reprinted from Ten Da'at Vol. III No. 3 pp.7-8


http://lookstein.org...y_for_women.htm

But when one speaks about the ability to study a page of Talmud, to understand it and enjoy it, I see no reason to deny these teachings to women. And it is even necessary to establish this as an integral part of the school curriculum, an actual shiur. This is the way I teach my daughter and so was my wife educated. This seems to me to be the recommended approach regarding the women of our generation. Intensive study contributes a great deal to womens education in terms of religious awe and Torah life. It helps halakha become a living entity, encourages a woman to seek halakhic guidance from a Rav, to ask a sheelah and the like.


The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#59 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:40 PM

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#60 Moshi

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:45 PM

And once they have increased torah knowledge, it's inevitable [or a slippy slope] that they will want to increase their observance of mitzvot. That's a natural progression as their passion is fed.

[I heard Reb. Rivka Blau make that point this weekend].


Someone at my shul wrote an article about her daughter. The woman said that at school her daughter was never challenged intellectually in Jewish subjects since they didn't do in-depth learning with girls. And so the girl received all her intellectual challenges and stimulation from the secular subjects, and basically started losing interest in Torah.
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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