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#61 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:54 PM

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#62 FYI

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:08 PM

I find that odd. I found the Jewish subjects WAY more interesting than history or whatever else they were supposed to be teaching us.
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#63 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:10 PM

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#64 Moshi

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:29 PM

The argument is the depth and the expectations, not interest. If science let's say is studied in depth, and jewish studies are studied more superficially. Or if jewish subjects are class discussions about issues, whereas secular subjects have more rigorous assignments and expectations.

Your mileage may vary.


And in secular subjects questions and curiosity are encouraged, and in Jewish subjects they might get you in trouble.
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

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#65 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:30 PM

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#66 Moshi

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:34 PM

I say that without first-hand knowledge of how Jewish subjects are taught to girls in schools to the left of some stereotypical Beis Yakov. I'm going with this woman's experience, I wonder whether it is representative.
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:40 PM

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#68 Monte Cristo

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 02:24 PM

Someone at my shul wrote an article about her daughter. The woman said that at school her daughter was never challenged intellectually in Jewish subjects since they didn't do in-depth learning with girls. And so the girl received all her intellectual challenges and stimulation from the secular subjects, and basically started losing interest in Torah.


That's the reason the Bais Yaakov movement took off. It was just assumed that women would be frum and when all these Yeshivah guys wanted to get married you had 20 guys lining up to go out with one girl because the other 19 girls went OTD because their love of Torah and mitzvot was taken for granted. And so when they were intellectually stimulated at University they went OTD (We're not the first generation with a "Shidduch Crisis"), so if anything it was a mitzvah for girls to learn.

And almost no one today has a problem with Bais Yaakov's, even the people who scream "apikorais" at the mention of women learning Gemara :rolleyes:.
1) "I pray my wife has a sex addiction, because I'm more than happy to be an enabler" - Frummy frum
2) "Hanukah is about throwing spears at people who assimilate" - Rentsy
3) "Are you trying to say that consummating one's marriage is bittul Torah?" - Savannah
4) "Men are so insecure in their sexuality. If they see two men with a deep friendship -- gay. If they see a man who isn't constantly lusting after women -- gay" - Savannah
5) "Isn't a divine hora'at sha'ah an even better license to kill than whatever James Bond has?" - Rentsy
"D*mn right" - Snag
6) "Facebook is spiritual chametz, because one becomes inflated with one's sense self importance while sitting around doing nothing" - Rentsy
7) "I always thought belle was a woman........am i wrong?" - Village
8) "When searching for the common denominator for all the members of this site (marketing purposes), I discovered that all the participating members are 'black sheep' in their own cirlces. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked" - Silent J
9) "oy. bible porn. that seems wrong" - Jewess
"I didn't write the script!" - Moshi
10) "I was recently involved in a discussion about the "Yeshiva Uniform", you know where jeans epitomize Satan, and God dresses like an Oreo cookie...." - Isreali4ever

#69 TimeRebbe

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 08:31 PM

And almost no one today has a problem with Bais Yaakov's, even the people who scream "apikorais" at the mention of women learning Gemara :rolleyes:.

And those who feel that BY is "too frum" for them?

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"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#70 Moshi

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:28 PM

That's the reason the Bais Yaakov movement took off. It was just assumed that women would be frum and when all these Yeshivah guys wanted to get married you had 20 guys lining up to go out with one girl because the other 19 girls went OTD because their love of Torah and mitzvot was taken for granted. And so when they were intellectually stimulated at University they went OTD (We're not the first generation with a "Shidduch Crisis"), so if anything it was a mitzvah for girls to learn.

And almost no one today has a problem with Bais Yaakov's, even the people who scream "apikorais" at the mention of women learning Gemara :rolleyes:.


Right, it's ironic that today BY is considered to be the opposite of an intellectual environment.
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~

#71 Monte Cristo

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:12 PM

And those who feel that BY is "too frum" for them?


Grand Admiral Thrawn?


Too frum in what regard? And yes.

Right, it's ironic that today BY is considered to be the opposite of an intellectual environment.


That goes to the issue of who becomes teachers/rabbi's/poskim today. Usually it's RWers so if Bais Yaakov's aren't intellectual environments it's partially because of the tendency of MO people not to want to become teachers and principals.
1) "I pray my wife has a sex addiction, because I'm more than happy to be an enabler" - Frummy frum
2) "Hanukah is about throwing spears at people who assimilate" - Rentsy
3) "Are you trying to say that consummating one's marriage is bittul Torah?" - Savannah
4) "Men are so insecure in their sexuality. If they see two men with a deep friendship -- gay. If they see a man who isn't constantly lusting after women -- gay" - Savannah
5) "Isn't a divine hora'at sha'ah an even better license to kill than whatever James Bond has?" - Rentsy
"D*mn right" - Snag
6) "Facebook is spiritual chametz, because one becomes inflated with one's sense self importance while sitting around doing nothing" - Rentsy
7) "I always thought belle was a woman........am i wrong?" - Village
8) "When searching for the common denominator for all the members of this site (marketing purposes), I discovered that all the participating members are 'black sheep' in their own cirlces. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked" - Silent J
9) "oy. bible porn. that seems wrong" - Jewess
"I didn't write the script!" - Moshi
10) "I was recently involved in a discussion about the "Yeshiva Uniform", you know where jeans epitomize Satan, and God dresses like an Oreo cookie...." - Isreali4ever

#72 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 01:06 PM

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#73 TimeRebbe

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 02:41 PM

Coeducation and Women Studying Talmud at the Maimonides School

http://dl.dropbox.co...x%20Dreamer.pdf


(please note my first use of DropBox on this site for attaching stuff. Hopefully I will mess it up less than what was happening with Google Docs where people couldn't open the links).

doesnt work. try the public folder
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#74 Guest_Melech_*

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 03:02 PM

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#75 Rentsy

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 03:26 PM

I've heard people talk about Rav Lichtenstein's shita on women learning Torat she be'al peh (which is 100% permissive) and say, "Rav Lichtenstein can't imagine existing without learning."
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#76 Moshi

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 06:20 PM

That goes to the issue of who becomes teachers/rabbi's/poskim today. Usually it's RWers so if Bais Yaakov's aren't intellectual environments it's partially because of the tendency of MO people not to want to become teachers and principals.


I suppose there is some truth to that, particularly re: MO men. Are there gender restrictions on who can teach what subjects in MO schools?
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~




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