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#21 Diogenes The Cynic

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 07:39 PM

Actually, pterodactyls are lizards. Birds in general are considered by scientists to be the last living dinosaurs. I have my doubts about the veracity of science, so I assume that what we know as dinosaurs are just birds that maybe we don't know about.

Their skeletons all share many unique features of avian anatomy, it's very interesting stuff.


Alligators are pretty unchanged.
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#22 TimeRebbe

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 09:43 PM

Alligators are pretty unchanged.


alligators dont have horns
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#23 israeli4ever

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:58 AM

since the gemara says that only kosher animals have horns, was triceratops a kosher animal?

where is this Gemara?

why ask about Triceratops, ask about rhinoceros



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#24 yoel

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:51 PM

where is this Gemara?

why ask about Triceratops, ask about rhinoceros

Maybe we need to understand what's a horn al pi halacha. Surely Chazal were aware of the rhino. Actually, doesn't a giraffe have horns?

Rav Wikipedia says that ceratomorphs (rhinos & tapirs) have cloven hooves.
וזה עקר צער של ישראל שיש להם בגלות
הכל הוא מחמת שנפלו מהדעת ותולין
הכל בטבע ובמקרים ובמזל

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#25 TimeRebbe

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:33 PM

Maybe we need to understand what's a horn al pi halacha. Surely Chazal were aware of the rhino. Actually, doesn't a giraffe have horns?

Rav Wikipedia says that ceratomorphs (rhinos & tapirs) have cloven hooves.


giraffes are kosher. but we dont eat them because theyre difficult to shecht
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#26 politico

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 02:00 PM

Surely Chazal were aware of the rhino.

why?
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#27 yoel

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 02:21 PM

why?

It was a well known animal in the greater greco-roman world at the time. Why wouldn't they know of it?
וזה עקר צער של ישראל שיש להם בגלות
הכל הוא מחמת שנפלו מהדעת ותולין
הכל בטבע ובמקרים ובמזל

רבי נחמן מברסלב

#28 Guest_miri_*

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 02:31 PM

giraffes are kosher. but we dont eat them because theyre difficult to shecht expensive.



#29 FYI

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 03:16 PM

giraffes are kosher. but we dont eat them because theyre difficult to shecht

I was told that this assumption is false and of all animals, they're actually the easiest to shecht because of long knife but they're expensive and taste horrible.
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#30 TimeRebbe

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 03:52 PM

I was told that this assumption is false and of all animals, they're actually the easiest to shecht because of long knife but they're expensive and taste horrible.


No idea. I hope mammoths taste better
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#31 Snag

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:26 PM

where is this Gemara?

why ask about Triceratops, ask about rhinoceros

niddah 51b "all that have horns have split hooves" which leads us to yoel's comment...

Maybe we need to understand what's a horn al pi halacha. Surely Chazal were aware of the rhino. Actually, doesn't a giraffe have horns?

Rav Wikipedia says that ceratomorphs (rhinos & tapirs) have cloven hooves.

there is some discussion in chullin (59?) about what, exactly, constitutes a horn (to differentiate between a beheima and a chaya).

rashi in niddah there understands the mishna's comment to mean that all horned beasts are kosher. see also b'eir hagolah to orach chaim 586:5 and peri chadash there and in yoreh dei'ah 80, and responsa chavos yair 20

giraffes are kosher. but we dont eat them because theyre difficult to shecht

I was told that this assumption is false and of all animals, they're actually the easiest to shecht because of long knife but they're expensive and taste horrible.

:agree:
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#32 Diogenes The Cynic

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:48 PM

niddah 51b "all that have horns have split hooves" which leads us to yoel's comment...


there is some discussion in chullin (59?) about what, exactly, constitutes a horn (to differentiate between a beheima and a chaya).

rashi in niddah there understands the mishna's comment to mean that all horned beasts are kosher. see also b'eir hagolah to orach chaim 586:5 and peri chadash there and in yoreh dei'ah 80, and responsa chavos yair 20



:agree:

The discussion on what is a horn is in Rosh Hashanah, if I am not mistaken.
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#33 Snag

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 08:12 PM

The discussion on what is a horn is in Rosh Hashanah, if I am not mistaken.

you may be right, but i think the only discussion in rosh hashana is whether there is a difference between "shofar" and "keren".
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#34 Diogenes The Cynic

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 08:43 PM

you may be right, but i think the only discussion in rosh hashana is whether there is a difference between "shofar" and "keren".


Yup. Thats what I was thinking of.
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#35 Snag

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:07 PM

Yup. Thats what I was thinking of.

the gemara in chullin that i'm referencing discusses exactly what type of horns render an animal a chaya, since we all know that some behaimos have horns as well.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#36 Short

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:17 PM

Does it matter if a horn is bone or keratin? Does the placement of the horn(s) matter, like it has to be on top of the head, or horn(s) on the protuberance of the face/nose also qualify halachically?
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#37 Snag

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:30 PM

Does it matter if a horn is bone or keratin?

the gemara in chullin which i mentioned says that the horns which differentiate a chaya from a beheima need to be "kruchos" and "charukos". there is some disagreement over what exactly these criteria are (tosafos in yoma 74a says that even the tannaim were uncertain of the exact meaning), so i don't know. i'm also unsure whether the same criteria would apply to the horns which are indicative of kashrus.

Does the placement of the horn(s) matter, like it has to be on top of the head, or horn(s) on the protuberance of the face/nose also qualify halachically?

i don't have any indication one way or another.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#38 LumpyPostage

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 05:20 AM

I say triceratops is kosher. Go ahead and eat one.
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