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#1 PFN

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 11:49 AM

Sorry for opening so many different threads lately, but I am learning a lot already. I have read a few articles from an Orrhodox position, basically saying they are the only "legitimate" Jews. For those that are not Orthodox, are there some articles that can be provided concerning Reform/conservative? Thanks!

#2 yoel

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:07 PM

All persons who are born to a Jewish mother or who convert according to Jewish law are legitimate Jews. It is the practice and institutions of reform and conservative which, in abandoning or abrogating Jewish law, are illegitimate.
וזה עקר צער של ישראל שיש להם בגלות
הכל הוא מחמת שנפלו מהדעת ותולין
הכל בטבע ובמקרים ובמזל

רבי נחמן מברסלב

#3 Guest_Shuli_*

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:08 PM

.

#4 PFN

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:34 PM

So is this site primarily an Orthodox forum? Also, as Orthodox Jews are you required to follow all 613 of the laws? Thanks for the good replies so far!

#5 Bet Chesed

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:38 PM

Hashkafah.com The Premier Frum (devout/pious/orthodox) Jewish Forum
Blessed be all

#6 israeli4ever

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:39 PM

So is this site primarily an Orthodox forum? Also, as Orthodox Jews are you required to follow all 613 of the laws? Thanks for the good replies so far!


remarkably few of them....


most are not relevant today
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#7 Savannah

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:46 PM

remarkably few of them....

most are not relevant today

More like none. Even in times when they were all relevant, no one person could keep all 613.

#8 PFN

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 02:29 PM

Yes clearly I do not know what frum means, until now. I know it would be a vast undertaking to go through all the laws that are not applicable now. Which laws still apply for an Orthodox Jew?

#9 yoel

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 03:45 PM

The laws all still apply in a general sense. It's just that many of them apply only in certain circumstances, like laws which apply to the Temple in Jerusalem (may it be rebuilt speedily in our days), or laws which apply to farmers in the land of Israel. There's a law that I have to put on tefilin. It doesn't apply to my wife because only men are required to wear tefilin, but it's still a law. There are laws that we have to offer sacrifices in the Temple, but the Temple was destroyed, so we can't fulfill those laws right now. They're still laws, though, and the Torah can't be changed. It's laws are never "fulfilled" and therefore altered or abrogated, as the Torah repeatedly makes clear. To be honest, I never got how xians could possibly believe otherwise when it says it again and again, "this will be a law for you forever".
וזה עקר צער של ישראל שיש להם בגלות
הכל הוא מחמת שנפלו מהדעת ותולין
הכל בטבע ובמקרים ובמזל

רבי נחמן מברסלב

#10 PFN

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 04:44 PM

Yes, that is what I struggle with as well. The clear language in the Torah about all of the laws being eternal. It just seems that the Christians conveniently "spiritualized" a lot of the passages, especially regarding the Law. How do the Reform/conservative Jews apply the Law in their lives, in light of what you have said?

#11 israeli4ever

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 04:49 PM

Yes, that is what I struggle with as well. The clear language in the Torah about all of the laws being eternal. It just seems that the Christians conveniently "spiritualized" a lot of the passages, especially regarding the Law. How do the Reform/conservative Jews apply the Law in their lives, in light of what you have said?

From what I understand, In much the same way. 'Spiritualizing' it.
Disclaimer: The comments made by this poster do not necessarily represent an actual opinion, they are merely the latest output of an infinite amount of monkeys working on Shakespeare
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"Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!" - Razie

"If you don't sin... Jesus died for nothing."

"because teaching is all about obscuration and obfuscation.."
- Snag

#12 yoel

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 05:30 PM

Yes, that is what I struggle with as well. The clear language in the Torah about all of the laws being eternal. It just seems that the Christians conveniently "spiritualized" a lot of the passages, especially regarding the Law. How do the Reform/conservative Jews apply the Law in their lives, in light of what you have said?

reform believes that the mitzvos are nice things to do to feel connected but that they are not in any way obligatory. This is easy for them to say because they don't believe the Torah to be Divine. The conservative believe that the mitzvos are obligatory but they go through a number of ideological somersaults to ignore ones that don't match contemporary secular values - and failing that, they just vote on it. It's very strange, I know a conservative rabbi who will drive on Shabbos but won't cook/write/use electronics. He feels no contradiction in this.
וזה עקר צער של ישראל שיש להם בגלות
הכל הוא מחמת שנפלו מהדעת ותולין
הכל בטבע ובמקרים ובמזל

רבי נחמן מברסלב

#13 PFN

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 10:57 PM

So the textual theories that suggest Moses did not author the Torah, or it is a composite document are rejected by the Orthodox?

#14 meltzerboy

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:25 AM

reform believes that the mitzvos are nice things to do to feel connected but that they are not in any way obligatory. This is easy for them to say because they don't believe the Torah to be Divine. The conservative believe that the mitzvos are obligatory but they go through a number of ideological somersaults to ignore ones that don't match contemporary secular values - and failing that, they just vote on it. It's very strange, I know a conservative rabbi who will drive on Shabbos but won't cook/write/use electronics. He feels no contradiction in this.

I cannot speak for the Conservative Rabbi you know, but I believe many Conservative Rabbis will drive to synagogue on Shabbat if the synagogue is not within reasonable walking distance. However, they will neither drive nor walk to a party or movie on Shabbat. In New York City, I often see Conservative Jews taking buses crosstown to get to their synagogue because walking, even at a leisurely pace, they consider more strenuous than traveling by public transportation. The fact they perform mundane tasks in the process, carry money, etc. is not considered by them as prohibitory since they are doing so to go to services. It may seem contradictory but if one is raised in this manner, one grows accustomed to such distinctions. Even some Reform Jews, such as myself, adhere to certain of the mitzvos, such as kosher laws, but only to a minimal degree: that is, not eating pork and shellfish and not mixing meat and milk. Again, it depends on how one is brought up and, while logically speaking, it may appear logically contradictory to Orthodox Jews, it can be rationalized in non-Orthodox Judaism.

#15 meltzerboy

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:31 AM

From what I understand, In much the same way. 'Spiritualizing' it.

The Reform Jews mainly spiritualize the Law, while the Conservative Jews adhere to it in part. There is a significant difference from the perspective of each group, though perhaps not from the perspective of Orthodox Jews. Even here, however, there are some differences within each group.

#16 Shemmy

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 08:36 PM

Yes, that is what I struggle with as well. The clear language in the Torah about all of the laws being eternal. It just seems that the Christians conveniently "spiritualized" a lot of the passages, especially regarding the Law. How do the Reform/conservative Jews apply the Law in their lives, in light of what you have said?



From what I understand, In much the same way. 'Spiritualizing' it.


And yet people still look at me funny when I say that the whole "spirit of the law" concept is foreign to Judaism and filtered in by way of interaction with Christians.

So the textual theories that suggest Moses did not author the Torah, or it is a composite document are rejected by the Orthodox?


Depends whom you ask, but for the majority, yes.

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#17 TimeRebbe

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:34 AM

So the textual theories that suggest Moses did not author the Torah, or it is a composite document are rejected by the Orthodox?


Moses transcribed the Torah as God commanded him to write it - on the day of his death he wrote Torah Scrolls for the Mishkan, for the Levites and for all the Tribes. But the actual content was 'written' by God.
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#18 meltzerboy

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 01:40 PM

reform believes that the mitzvos are nice things to do to feel connected but that they are not in any way obligatory. This is easy for them to say because they don't believe the Torah to be Divine. The conservative believe that the mitzvos are obligatory but they go through a number of ideological somersaults to ignore ones that don't match contemporary secular values - and failing that, they just vote on it. It's very strange, I know a conservative rabbi who will drive on Shabbos but won't cook/write/use electronics. He feels no contradiction in this.

Many Reform Jews believe that the Law may have been binding at one time to guide and educate the nomadic Jewish people, but is mostly unbinding in modern times as the Jewish people's social lives have changed. Just which parts of the Law are, however, still binding and which parts not pose considerable challenges--and sometimes inconsistencies--to both Reform and Conservative Judaism.

#19 israeli4ever

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 01:48 PM

And yet people still look at me funny when I say that the whole "spirit of the law" concept is foreign to Judaism and filtered in by way of interaction with Christians.

There is a Jewish concept of "spirit of the law", I believe, but it only works as far as what you cannot get away with, not as a fulfillment of the law.
I can't remember an example offhand, but I do have in my head somewhere that it does exist.
Disclaimer: The comments made by this poster do not necessarily represent an actual opinion, they are merely the latest output of an infinite amount of monkeys working on Shakespeare
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"Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!" - Razie

"If you don't sin... Jesus died for nothing."

"because teaching is all about obscuration and obfuscation.."
- Snag

#20 spectra

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 01:00 PM

More like none. Even in times when they were all relevant, no one person could keep all 613.

 

Another way of looking at it, is that God keeps His word, and brings His word to fulfillment. Lucifer the serpent, claimed that God did not keep His word. The womans greatest strength in that moment when he tempted her with sin, is knowing and walking in the fact that God keeps His word. Lucifer the serpent stole that in his beguiling lie and turned awareness and trust of God and His word away from her, and keeping the 1 command. 






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