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#1 Snag

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 01:00 AM

why do the mesechtos in kodshim have so many more mistakes than [most of] the ones in other sedorim? you have the shittah mekubetzes and the tzon kodoshim, and even the bach seems to have more annotations than elsewhere, and many of the emendations are to'uyos d'mukchi. what's the pshat?
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#2 Rentsy

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:53 PM

Well, I think the shitat mekubetzet on kodshim is mazal. I think it just turned out that we got it into our hands, I think it was originally on everything.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#3 Snag

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 11:22 AM

Well, I think the shitat mekubetzet on kodshim is mazal. I think it just turned out that we got it into our hands, I think it was originally on everything.

really? the fact that the same author wrote a very different sefer with the same name on various mesechtos in noshim and nezikin doesn't suggest that he took a different tack in kodshim? and many of the mistake are glaring and obvious, and aren't at all comparable to many mesechtos in the other sedorim.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#4 Rentsy

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:26 PM

Kodashim was not as heavily studied, therefore there were fewer manuscripts, and from the neglect errors crept in?

I feel like there was a time after Rabbeinu Tam when even in Ashkenaz, study focused on the masechtot that were more l'ma'aseh, which was always the trend in Sepharad/Mizrach. Like look at the Rosh, and what he writes on.

One of the things Brisk brought us was Shas - Shisha Sidrei Mishna, and the study thereof. If the Bet HaMikdash represents the highest expression of halakha, how can you ignore Kodashim?
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#5 Snag

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:48 PM

Kodashim was not as heavily studied, therefore there were fewer manuscripts, and from the neglect errors crept in?

that's the most likely explanation.

I feel like there was a time after Rabbeinu Tam when even in Ashkenaz, study focused on the masechtot that were more l'ma'aseh, which was always the trend in Sepharad/Mizrach. Like look at the Rosh, and what he writes on.

the rosh was writing a halachic compendium, so that's not really a good proof. but this phenomenon was manifest even in tannaic times - havu t'nuyei 4 sidrei.

One of the things Brisk brought us was Shas - Shisha Sidrei Mishna, and the study thereof. If the Bet HaMikdash represents the highest expression of halakha, how can you ignore Kodashim?

1)brisk doesn't focus on the halachic aspect.
2)brisk brought that to us?
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#6 Rentsy

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:01 PM

Yes, Brisk brought us Kodshim, which is a very important seder in Shas.

I was pointing out that these are the theoretical underpinnings to what happened in the Bet HaMikdash, which was a very special and holy place, and that Kodshim represents the fullest expression of the halakhic system.

The Minchat Chinuch was interesting because he really went through all the mitzvot, including the korbanot etc. But no one would learn the Minchat Chinuch if not for Rav Chaim. Thus, Briskers love the Minchat Chinuch, and people learn the entire Minchat Chinuch.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#7 Snag

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:10 PM

Brisk brought us Kodshim


But no one would learn the Minchat Chinuch if not for Rav Chaim. Thus, Briskers love the Minchat Chinuch, and people learn the entire Minchat Chinuch.

with all due respect, rentsy, i think these comments are perfectly asinine. and, ftr, it was the brisker rav who began the brisker focus on kodshim.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#8 Rentsy

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:59 PM

The minchat chinuch went through every mitzvah. That's why the Briskers love him - because he does it for Kodshim too.

Also, the Brisker Rov didn't start kodashim, Rav Chaim already made it important. For example, Rav Chaim had unpublished chiddushim on Shas, and when he died his sons split them, and the Brisker Rov got the ones on Kodshim.

There is real Torat she b'al peh amoung the Briskers. Rav Chaim is more than the book. Much more.

Consider this: once you make the Rambam the reference point for everything, you make the whole Rambam the reference point for everything. That includes Kodashim and Toharot. It's a global view of the structure of halakha, which you get from the Rambam, that Rav Chaim gave us.

Ask a Mirrer or a Brisker.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#9 Snag

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:04 PM

The minchat chinuch went through every mitzvah. That's why the Briskers love him - because he does it for Kodshim too.

my shock was at your supposition that "nobody would learn minchas chinuch if not for rav chaim".

Also, the Brisker Rov didn't start kodashim, Rav Chaim already made it important. For example, Rav Chaim had unpublished chiddushim on Shas, and when he died his sons split them, and the Brisker Rov got the ones on Kodshim.

of course th brisker rav didn't "start kodshim" - it was a seder of shas which, while getting less attention than other, more practically relevant sedorim, was still studied by all genuine scholars. however, the brisker rav was the beginner of the brisker "focus" on kodshim.

There is real Torat she b'al peh amoung the Briskers. Rav Chaim is more than the book. Much more.

and your point is?

Consider this: once you make the Rambam the reference point for everything, you make the whole Rambam the reference point for everything. That includes Kodashim and Toharot. It's a global view of the structure of halakha, which you get from the Rambam, that Rav Chaim gave us.

i am shocked nearly to speechlessness by your apparent assumption that rav chaim was an "innovator" in focusing on the rambam.

Ask a Mirrer or a Brisker.

ask them what? and define "mirrer" and "brisker", please.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#10 Rentsy

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:34 PM

Rav Chaim changed the way we see Rambam forever.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#11 Snag

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:36 PM

Rav Chaim changed the way we see Rambam forever.

ooook.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#12 Rentsy

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:00 PM

ooook.

Not okay?
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#13 Snag

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 06:45 PM

Not okay?

while i think rav chaim's contribution to the Torah world is considerable and significant, i also think it can be overstated, and that ascribing it specifically to a novel approach to the rambam is false; in my extremely limited expertise, i think rav chaim developed a innovative method of incisive thought, and the fact that he chose to apply it to the rambam in his written work is simply an expression of his love of simplicity, not of the method being more relevant to the rambam than to shas.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#14 Rentsy

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:16 PM

As an aside, how big of a fan are you of the Chazon Ish on Rav Chaim on the Rambam?
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#15 Snag

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 10:09 PM

As an aside, how big of a fan are you of the Chazon Ish on Rav Chaim on the Rambam?

i am not near enough of a lamdan to have a specific opinion on that, but, in general, i enjoy the chazon ish's clarity and innovative approach.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#16 Rentsy

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 11:54 PM

i am not near enough of a lamdan to have a specific opinion on that, but, in general, i enjoy the chazon ish's clarity and innovative approach.

Me too!

The sharpness of his criticism of Rav Chaim's conclusions shocked me at first, but then I came to appreciate the clarity.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#17 Snag

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:46 AM

The sharpness of his criticism of Rav Chaim's conclusions shocked me at first, but then I came to appreciate the clarity.

as i gained familiarity with the chazon ish's work and style, i came to view his sharpness not as disrespect but as a product of the strength of his opinions which developed from an original review of the primary sources.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain




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