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Unflattering Talmud Quotes


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#1 PFN

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:10 PM

There seem to be many quotes from the Talmud that suggest that Gentiles are not human, and that it is OK to deceive them in business/life in general. Are these fabrications, or if not, what is the explanations behind these verses?

#2 Tel Aviv

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:58 PM

You've pretty much described all religions: either you follow a specific god, or you will fry like an animal for eternity in hell, or be reincarnated into a cockroach.
Sometimes I wonder why some elites work so hard in an unethical manner to gain wealth and power: they can't take any of their wealth and power with them when they die. Philosophically looking at it, if there is a G-d, they will have an eternity of suffering to pay for their crimes against humanity. And if there is no G-d, then once they die, they will have no memories and conscious awareness of their success in life because their consciousness and memories are lost for eternity, becoming nothing more than dirt in the ground. So, these elites in the end lose either way. The 100 years of life living like a king is just a drop of water in the infinite ocean of time that they will experience suffering at the hands of G-d, or not experience in a state of non-existence.

#3 brianna

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:09 PM

There seem to be many quotes from the Talmud that suggest that Gentiles are not human, and that it is OK to deceive them in business/life in general. Are these fabrications, or if not, what is the explanations behind these verses?

In order to understand the Talmud you have to actually study it. You can read mistranslated and/or out of context quotes off Stormfront all you want but don't think you're getting the truth.

If you have a question about a particular passage, name it and state where it's from.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#4 PFN

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:43 PM

On the house of the Goy one looks as on the fold of cattle.

Tosefta, Tractate Erubin VIII

Now I know so little about Talmud, that it is hard for me to discern whether this is from the Talmud or not. If this is from the Talmud, how is it not incredibly racist?

#5 brianna

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:24 PM

That's a popular one on anti-Jewish websites, as far as I can tell on Google.

I would like to read the entire passage to know what it's referring to (or if it was even translated correctly). But Jewish texts certainly do place Jews above non Jews. All religions place their own above others.

However it might interest you to know that Judaism is one of the only religions that don't say you have to part of the religion to go to heaven. A righteous gentile is welcomed into heaven. Whereas Christians believe anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell. The Talmud also states that a Jew must follow the laws of the land if he lives in a non Jewish country (as long as those laws don't violate Jewish law). The Talmud mandates respect for all living beings.

I am sure that if certain passages were taken out of context from say the New Testament one could make the text look equally unflattering. Not that you necessarily care. People who hate Jews are rarely willing to see reason. They're just looking for more fodder for their hate. If that's what you're here for please leave. Any legitimate questions are of course welcome.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#6 PFN

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:43 PM

I thought by stating in my posts that I know precious little about the Talmud, was enough to show that I am here to learn and not belittle, and absolutely not be anti Semitic. If you care to look at my other posts on this forum you would know that.

There are many verses that I have found online that are said to be from the Talmud, that are extremely hostile to the Goyim. Are these all mistranslations, or are they truly part of Jewish Tradition?

Also, as far as Christianity is concerned, you don't even need to take the New Testament out of context for it to be extremely intolerant of Jews. As well, just read the Church's very own John Chrysostom to see extreme anti semitism in the early Church Fathers.

#7 brianna

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:52 PM

I thought by stating in my posts that I know precious little about the Talmud, was enough to show that I am here to learn and not belittle, and absolutely not be anti Semitic. If you care to look at my other posts on this forum you would know that.

I haven't seen your other posts.

There have been people who have come directly from Stormfront asking similar "questions", and that's where my weariness and suspicion comes from.

There are many verses that I have found online that are said to be from the Talmud, that are extremely hostile to the Goyim. Are these all mistranslations, or are they truly part of Jewish Tradition?

Many are taken out of context, some are mistranslated and some are outright fabrications.

Something to consider is that until recently Jews lived in a world where non Jews were to be distrusted. Think about how you would feel if you lived in a village that periodically got raided by people running around with torches and pitchforks looting your belongings and raping your women. It made sense to guard oneself and to think of others as enemies.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#8 PFN

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:58 AM

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

Now is this an authentic quote from the Talmud?

#9 Yudi

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 11:38 AM

Most quotes supposedly about the Talmud, on the internet, are fabrications.Perhaps 80% or more of internet sites about the Talmud are simply anti-Jewish websites peddling lies about the Talmud.

PFN, what is the website where you are getting these quotes from?

#10 Yudi

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 11:44 AM

... People who hate Jews are rarely willing to see reason. They're just looking for more fodder for their hate. If that's what you're here for please leave. Any legitimate questions are of course welcome.

Afaik, PFN is a Christian, not a Nazi. He was banned on his first post, reincarnated and has been behaving himself since, afaik.

True, Christians can make as good Jew-haters as Nazis, but I think he's here to discuss and learn, not to denigrate us.

#11 Rentsy

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 12:57 PM

Well, interpreting statements literally and taking them out of context will make for some very strange statements.

I wouldn't hold it against the Talmud, or the Rabbinic tradition. The process of trying to understand the Talmud is a long and difficult one, and Rabbis throughout the ages have struggled with how to understand the Talmud. Strange statements are no exception. If you look into the commentaries on the Talmud that try to explain the narrative/story/moral sections of the Talmud, you will see Medieval Rabbis interpreting the Talmud in a way that makes sense.

That is to say, we in the 21st Century are not the first ones to be bothered by these sections. In the 13th Century, this was going on. It's motivated by the attempt to read the Talmud in the context of the rest of the Talmud, instead of taking something literally and out of that context.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#12 PFN

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 01:01 PM

Forgive me if the link I provide is seen as anti Semitic, it is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion:

http://www.rense.com...ral86/talmd.htm

I hope, and pray, that many, if not all of these are fakes. I have a deep love for Judaism, and see this filth about the Talmud all the time. I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism. I await your replies, and am certain that I will benefit much!

#13 warren

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 01:35 PM

Most quotes supposedly about the Talmud, on the internet, are fabrications.Perhaps 80% or more of internet sites about the Talmud are simply anti-Jewish websites peddling lies about the Talmud.

PFN, what is the website where you are getting these quotes from?

I don't know where PFN found them, but googling "Midrasch Talpioth" (spelled as in his post, with quotation marks, to get an exact match) turns up mostly the anti-Jewish websites you refer to, antisemitic talkbacks, and the occassional person who asks about one or more items from those sites on a "answers" site or on a forum like this one. It's hard to tell if the latter are antisemitic, trolling or have been duped.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#14 warren

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 01:43 PM

Forgive me if the link I provide is seen as anti Semitic, it is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion:

http://www.rense.com...ral86/talmd.htm

I hope, and pray, that many, if not all of these are fakes. I have a deep love for Judaism, and see this filth about the Talmud all the time. I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism. I await your replies, and am certain that I will benefit much!

The site is antisemitic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Rense

Jeff Rense is an American conspiracy theorist and radio talk-show host of the Jeff Rense Program, broadcast on US satellite radio via Republic Broadcasting Network (RBN) and Internet radio.

Rense's radio program and website, Rense.com, cover subjects such as 9/11 conspiracy theories, UFO reporting, paranormal phenomena, Holocaust denial, Zionism, tracking of new diseases and possible resultant pandemics, environmental concerns (see chemtrails), animal rights, possible evidence of advanced ancient technology, geopolitical developments and emergent energy technologies, complementary and alternative medicine among other subjects.

Rense's show has been noted as being among "conspiracy-oriented Internet radio shows that often feature antisemites and extremists" by the Anti-Defamation League, a non-profit organisation that opposes antisemitism.


Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#15 Brisker

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 03:05 PM

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

Now is this an authentic quote from the Talmud?

This isn't from the talmud. It may be from the talmudic period. I've never even heard of the midrasch talpioth. Also, know that only a small percentage of jews, unfortunately, ,have ever really even opened the talmud, maybe 10 percent of jews have. Once one is outside of the realm of the babylonian talmud and mishnah, that number is almost 0.


Forgive me if the link I provide is seen as anti Semitic, it is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion:

http://www.rense.com...ral86/talmd.htm

I hope, and pray, that many, if not all of these are fakes. I have a deep love for Judaism, and see this filth about the Talmud all the time. I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism. I await your replies, and am certain that I will benefit much!

There are many quotes here. Many of them are not properly sourced, or in valid sources (midrash talpioth?). And each one would need individual attention.
I do consider myself a moral person and I surely view non jews as people to the same extent as non-jews. At the same time, I value the word of all of these talmudic sources. I have never lost any sleep over a quote from the talmud or midrashim. Perhaps this is because when I see these quotes I see them in context, both historical and textual.
And I wouldn't let it worry you. Except for things which have been accepted as part of jewish law, ie philosophical non-legalistic statements, is subject to much debate and likely doesn't represent jewish philosophy. Also there is no one jewish philosophy.

None of this matters.

#16 Diogenes The Cynic

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:55 PM

PFN, ask a specific question, with a source, and if I know enough about the topic, I will give you an answer.
Libertarian. Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.

#17 Snag

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:31 PM

On the house of the Goy one looks as on the fold of cattle.

Tosefta, Tractate Erubin VIII

Now I know so little about Talmud, that it is hard for me to discern whether this is from the Talmud or not. If this is from the Talmud, how is it not incredibly racist?


this quote is from the tosefta, which is a collection of tannaic teachings excluded from rabbi yehuda the prince's codification of the mishna. it is considerably less studied than the talmud, as well as less authoritative and more obscure, and, as such, countless copyists' errors and other mistakes have crept into it over the years. even when properly edited, its language is difficult to the point that the commentaries often interpret its meaning far differently than the simple reading would seem to indicate.


Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.
 
Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

Now is this an authentic quote from the Talmud?

no. the midrash talpiyos is a collection of quotes on jewish topics arranged under headings organized alphabetically, published by a turkish rav in the late 17th-early 18th century. it is not a part of the talmud by any stretch of the imagination, and even my cursory studies in it have been enough to prove that much of it is allegorical or inspirational.

I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism.

we are not the authorities for pious orthodox judaism - we are simply a group of jews, of various levels of observance and knowledge, who come together to enjoy the camaraderie of an internet discussion forum. if you want authoritative answers, find a learned rabbi.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#18 PFN

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 10:12 PM

Snag, thank you for all of the help in discerning these quotes. Great post.

I know that I should find a Rabbi, however, I am nowhere near and Orthodox Synagogue, so it makes it difficult. I am also reading a lot of topics on this site in general, and just learning the language.

#19 Snag

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 10:27 PM

Snag, thank you for all of the help in discerning these quotes. Great post.

I know that I should find a Rabbi, however, I am nowhere near and Orthodox Synagogue, so it makes it difficult. I am also reading a lot of topics on this site in general, and just learning the language.

you're welcome. i'm glad to be of whatever service i can.

i just reread my earlier post, and i fear i was not clear enough: i did not intend to discourage you from posting your questions on this site - feel free, and enjoy! you will likely get much useful information. i just wanted to make perfectly clear that, while many members of this site are expert in various areas of jewish law and/or thought, the collection of us can in no way be viewed as :the authorities for pious orthodox judaism". we are simply a group of people expressing our respective opinions, and you need to remember to view tthem as such.

happy posting!
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#20 Yudi

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 10:48 PM

Forgive me if the link I provide is seen as anti Semitic, it is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion:

http://www.rense.com...ral86/talmd.htm

I hope, and pray, that many, if not all of these are fakes. I have a deep love for Judaism, and see this filth about the Talmud all the time. I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism. I await your replies, and am certain that I will benefit much!


Snag, thank you for all of the help in discerning these quotes. Great post.

I know that I should find a Rabbi, however, I am nowhere near and Orthodox Synagogue, so it makes it difficult. I am also reading a lot of topics on this site in general, and just learning the language.

Rense - they are one of the major anti-Jewish websites around. I can name dozens of antisemitic websites, with their conspiracy theories, by Christians, neo-Nazis, Muslims, etc. I have dealt with quite a lot with their anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and anti-Talmud fabrications.

I could give you the URL's for a couple of Jewish websites that do have authentic passages from the Talmud. However, I think before you begin to look at Talmud, you need to study Torah, and understand Jewish exegesis. Then, some study of Talmud. It's a matter of learning to walk before you can run.

It is also a good idea for you to learn the history of the Talmud, ie the history of Jews and the Talmud under Christianity. In short, the Christians wanted the Jews to convert to Christianity, the Jews refused, the Christians could not attack the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) as the Christians also followed that, but they could attack other Jewish religious texts such as the Talmud. Hence the origins of the Talmud being seen as this vile anti-gentile text, and the deliberate misinterpreting of passages or outright fabrication of passages. The Nazis continued the tradition, now the Muslims have taken it up.

PFN, it is good you have come here to learn about Jews and Judaism. Although I dont think there are any rabbis here, there are some very knowledgeable people.




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