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#41 33948

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:43 AM

The Torah itself must be read in its original language, which is poetic (among other things). likewise material is usually purposely mistranslated. Thus not a good read.

I've never seen Jews smearing lambs blood on their doors during passover, nor Christians, though both are commanded to do it and I probably have exposure to literally millions of Christians and Jews within my midst.

As I understand it Judaism is about thought, questioning, debate and interpretation. The original books are a tradition that connects Jews to their history and glues the community together. They would not be something that is followed mindlessly to the letter.

I am writing about a some Talmud literature I looked at online and also read the Christian bible (including Torah) cover to cover a long time ago. Quite difficult to get through the lists of genealogical names and there are many other seemingly illogical things in the text (jonah living inside a whale?).

#42 Snag

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:04 PM

I've never seen Jews smearing lambs blood on their doors during passover, nor Christians, though both are commanded to do it and I probably have exposure to literally millions of Christians and Jews within my midst.

you're mistaken. the jews were commanded to smear the blood of the paschal lamb on their doorposts on the original passover. subsequent passover sacrifices did not include this codicil. furthermore, the paschal lamb, like all other sacrifices, was suspended with the destruction of the holy temple. once again, i recommend doing some basic research.

As I understand it Judaism is about thought, questioning, debate and interpretation. The original books are a tradition that connects Jews to their history and glues the community together. They would not be something that is followed mindlessly to the letter.

you base this false assumption on....?

(jonah living inside a whale?).

technically it says "fish".
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:11 PM

you're mistaken. the jews were commanded to smear the blood of the paschal lamb on their doorposts on the original passover. subsequent passover sacrifices did not include this codicil. furthermore, the paschal lamb, like all other sacrifices, was suspended with the destruction of the holy temple. once again, i recommend doing some basic research.


you base this false assumption on....?


technically it says "fish".


No need to let the truth stand in the way of a good story (as my dear FYI is wont to say).

#44 brianna

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 08:00 PM

33948, you are more ignorant about what you speak than you can possibly imagine. In one of your posts you ask why Jewish texts couldn't be laid out in a way that would be easier for you to understand. Why should they cater to you? If you had any respect for the religion or the texts you would take the time to learn them on their own terms. Would you pick up a physics book and complain that it's too difficult for you to understand without even bothering to learn the foundational principals of physics? Why not give Jewish texts the level of regard?
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#45 33948

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 12:17 PM

33948, you are more ignorant about what you speak than you can possibly imagine. In one of your posts you ask why Jewish texts couldn't be laid out in a way that would be easier for you to understand. Why should they cater to you? If you had any respect for the religion or the texts you would take the time to learn them on their own terms. Would you pick up a physics book and complain that it's too difficult for you to understand without even bothering to learn the foundational principals of physics? Why not give Jewish texts the level of regard?


I have done this. It is more like reading the Physics book, studying it, then later asking questions on it. Obviously I have not studied at a jewish school. Yet there is no command in the "old testament" saying that the smearing of lambs blood is no longer valid. where can that be found? If it is found in some later book then obviously it is a contradiction. It would make more sense in that case to simply put a commentary at the bottom or something (this is no longer valid refer to xx).

A physics book would not write about some outdated and disproven concept in chapter 2 only to then discredit it in chapter 10. That is a rather confusing and inefficient way of learning.

In English translations it says Jonah lived in a whale. I guess if we consider that he lived inside a guppy it would become even more absurd. Unless this is some form of astrological allegory for the age of the fish?

I never claimed to be an expert on Judiasm which is why I ask inquisitive questions. Yet I suppose I'm a big fan of the enlightenment (science, reason etc.) and find it odd that people would throw away free thought in favor of blind obedience.

I was reading some books on Judaism which claimed the religion was about questioning etc. which is why there are many interpretations and commentaries (what are these called- mishnas?).

Maybe I'm wrong and Judaism is just as backwards as Islam or Christianity. I wasn't aware of this.

I'm mostly a big fan of more liberal forms of Judaism which are not as traditional. They seem based on ideas almost identical to mine- more of a "progressive" judaism. Which means adapting laws, customs etc. in a practical way to modern times, rather than blind obedience to 3,000 year old scripture.

#46 warren

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 12:22 PM

In English translations it says Jonah lived in a whale.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/jonah/1-17-compare.html
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#47 Snag

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 12:25 PM

I have done this. It is more like reading the Physics book, studying it, then later asking questions on it. Obviously I have not studied at a jewish school. Yet there is no command in the "old testament" saying that the smearing of lambs blood is no longer valid. where can that be found? If it is found in some later book then obviously it is a contradiction. It would make more sense in that case to simply put a commentary at the bottom or something (this is no longer valid refer to xx).

if you study the text carefully, you will see that G-d commanded them to smear the paschal blood on their doorposts that one time. in subsequent instances of the commandments relating to the pesach sacrifice, no such mention is made.

In English translations it says Jonah lived in a whale.

the first step towards serious study would be not to base all of your information on a simple translation, as languages don't always translate accurately into each other. moreover, you would then need to consider the possibility that the translator made an error. if you are not familiar with biblical hebrew, and disinclined to learn it, yet you wish to pursue studies of the text, a smart step would be to acquire one of the many excellent commentaries which have been translated to (or written in) english.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#48 paganyid

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 06:04 PM

Most torah quotes are particularist. There are a handful that are universal (or mostly universal). I have never been personally comfortable with the balance.

#49 sal

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:17 PM

Forgive me if the link I provide is seen as anti Semitic, it is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion:

http://www.rense.com...ral86/talmd.htm

I hope, and pray, that many, if not all of these are fakes. I have a deep love for Judaism, and see this filth about the Talmud all the time. I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism. I await your replies, and am certain that I will benefit much!


Interesting.

I had no Idea that tumah was translated filthy. I was always looking for an English word for that.

#50 sal

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:20 PM

Forgive me if the link I provide is seen as anti Semitic, it is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion:

http://www.rense.com...ral86/talmd.htm

I hope, and pray, that many, if not all of these are fakes. I have a deep love for Judaism, and see this filth about the Talmud all the time. I come to you guys to discuss these allegations because you are the authorities for Pious Orthodox Judaism. I await your replies, and am certain that I will benefit much!


How on earth does this
אדם שיש לו גוי מערופי''א יש מקומות שדנין שאסור לאחרים לירד לחיותו ולעסוק עם הגוי ההוא ויש מקומות שאין דנין ויש מתירין לישראל אחר לילך לגוי ההוא להלוות לו ולעסוק עמו ולשחודי ליה ולאפוקיה מניה דנכסי גוי הם כהפקר וכל הקודם זכה ויש אוסרין ואפילו ישראל שעושה מלאכה אצל הגוי ורגיל בכך אסור לישראל אחר ליכנס שם ולהוזיל המלאכה ואם רוצה לעשותו גוערים בו

translate to this

When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156

Snag do you know the translation of מערופי''א
The aruch hashulchan has the best explanation, but I don't understand how its different then the second case.

#51 Snag

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 10:40 AM

Snag do you know the translation of מערופי''א

i think maarufya refers to the halachic concept allowing a person the right to "claim" a client. iow, it is halachically prohibited for a professional or service provider to specifically seek out a client who already frequents another professional, unless the client in question is already known to be unhappy with the services he is receiving. the quoted selection discusses whether or not there is a prohibition to 'poach' a gentile client of another jew in this fashion.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#52 FYI

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 11:43 AM

No need to let the truth stand in the way of a good story (as my dear FYI is wont to say).

I am? (p.s. you never replied abt the bbq?)
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#53 sal

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 07:42 PM

i think maarufya refers to the halachic concept allowing a person the right to "claim" a client. iow, it is halachically prohibited for a professional or service provider to specifically seek out a client who already frequents another professional, unless the client in question is already known to be unhappy with the services he is receiving. the quoted selection discusses whether or not there is a prohibition to 'poach' a gentile client of another jew in this fashion.


Thanks.

#54 Szydlowski

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Praiseworthy is the one who marries his sisters daughter! Think it's in Yevomes, pretty embarrassing
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#55 ayala:))

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 12:51 PM

the Talmud has been taken out of context on many occassions, with many non jews viewing the contexts of the text is a negative light.

I have spoken to many non jews who believe that this text promotes jewish superemacy over the goyim.

My grandfather was a well known rabbi in london, i wish he was alive he knew all the answers to most problems, particularly regarding the misunderstanding of the Talmud.

Many muslims i met an university believed the Talmud to be comparable to the muslim Hadiths, but these comments merely scratch the surface. It obviously depends on who reads the Talmud and the interpretation they draw from this. In order to understand the Talmud, you must firstly contextualise the Torah, and read the history of the jewish people.

Only once you have acomplished that will you understand why certain terminology is used.

Within the latitude of the Talmudic texts (mishna/gemara) it is essential to form a narrative yourself of what you consider to be acceptable in society and what you feel should be questioned.

Only then can you really discuss the Talmud is the necessary parametres.

#56 33948

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:29 AM

The fact is that Judaism is based on helping other Jews, often with an "us" vs "them" mentality. It is like a special club where members get an unfair social advantage. And to top it off many of these members aggressively attack other people in society. There's no humility or restraint- just a sense of chutzpah.

Tim Wise is a good example. He takes Judaism's "special club" ideology and falsely assigns it to regular white people and then preaches that whites should hate themselves and submit to mandatory discrimination as a result.

There's no way to avoid this. If you just go to a school, turn on the TV, get a job, deal with banks, businesses, government etc. you are slapped in the face with discrimination, insults, belittling etc. It's always hidden in a cloak of lies but people start to take interest in why their school or TV asks them to hate their own people. Or why they are denied opportunities in favor of less capable people. Or why guilt and shame is forced upon them.

Almost no Jews speak out against these aggressive attacks. If they do they are labeled as self hating Jews by mainstream Judaism.

The focus of Judaism is to have as many children as possible and to prop up Jews as a race of priests and kings. Yet in the end if this plan is successful and the whole world becomes Jewish, then Jews will just start fighting among each other. Thus Jews can only be special if there are victims who are discriminated against.

There is nothing positive that comes from this. In the short term it helps perpetuate that status of Judaism itself but it's more in a cancerous sense that it only grows at the expense of the host and when the host dies- the cancer dies.

I think there are great concepts in Judaism. But we have a society which is inherently aggressive towards non-Jews- constantly trying to rob them of status, of heritage, of identity etc. while promoting such things in Jews. There is no obligation to society as a whole- only toward other Jews. This is the root of antisemitism. It's totally illogical. I can't understand how Judaism can be full of so many great and highly intellectual concepts yet as a whole act in such as base and irrational manner.

When I look around I see a lot of examples of Jews working together to harm non-Jews. Yet I never see Jews actually helping non-Jews in any meaningful way (other than on the individual level maybe as a personal friend).

There's so much talk of charity in Judaism but all the charity is directed at Zionism or other Jews.

That's what gets people interested in antisemitism. Then they research the Talmud and find quotes about non-Jews being non-human etc.

It must be acceptable in Judaism or else Jews themselves would condemn such behavior and teach that it's wrong.

Of course there are many different groups of Jews with different practices etc. but this is the face of modern zionism and the Jewish organizations with the wealth and power.

#57 ijs

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:21 PM

I would like to read the entire passage to know what it's referring to (or if it was even translated correctly). But Jewish texts certainly do place Jews above non Jews. All religions place their own above others.


I'm not even sure if this is true, exactly, because:

However it might interest you to know that Judaism is one of the only religions that don't say you have to part of the religion to go to heaven. A righteous gentile is welcomed into heaven.


In fact, as I understand it, a righteous gentile is a non-Jew who follows the Noachide Laws. A non-Jew who follows these is covered with respect to the World to Come. As far as I know, Judaism is the only religion about which this can be said. (N.B.: I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about Islam to say whether this is a Muslim principle, but I believe Islam does hold it to be true with respect to Judaism and Xianity as well as Islam.)

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[I]t is difficult to find a site that actually deals with these quotes in a neutral fashion.

I know that I should find a Rabbi, however, I am nowhere near and Orthodox Synagogue, so it makes it difficult.


If you want to find a source that deals with Talmud – or anything else Jewish – read Jewish websites. It is absurd to investigate anything about Judaism from non-Jews. If you want to know what Judaism thinks about anything, you have to ask (orthodox) Jews. Otherwise, you're depending on telepathy at best.

Also, start studying with an orthodox Jew. It is not necessary to do so in person; the Gottorah site can hook you up with a study partner by phone, since you are not near a synagogue. And you can pretty much study any topic you like.

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I couldn't find any Talmud in the book store (where I can read it for free).


Try an orthodox synagogue (if there is one nearby), which I assume possesses, as mine does, , a complete set you can peruse – preferably, study with an orthodox Jew. I am a semi-regular there (couple times per week, as time & work permit), and can open one anytime.

A cultural expression or religion is very much like a glove- it will conform to fit the hand that wears it. The true basis of spirituality is in the nature of the beholder.


Judaism doesn't work like that. It is what it is, not what you think it should be. Brianna is right. Your ignorance is so great you are not truly aware of it.

I have done this. It is more like reading the Physics book, studying it, then later asking questions on it.


What you're doing is not that. You cannot start in the middle of the physics book, jump around, claim you understand it, then make statements about it. You have expounded upon your ideology in this thread, rather than asked questions. You have jumped to conclusions without studying first.

[T]here is no command in the "old testament" saying that the smearing of lambs blood is no longer valid. where can that be found?


You are making an assumption about the command in the first place. Since we were only brought out of Mitzrayim once, there is no need to repeat the action. What we are commanded to do is to tell the story every year, including asking the same questions every year. You're cherry-picking.

I'm a big fan of the enlightenment (science, reason etc.) and find it odd that people would throw away free thought in favor of blind obedience.


Jews (by and large) do not do that. Peruse, for example, the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists. Judaism and science are in no way incompatible, and in fact the study of science is the study of what HaShem has created. One (orthodox) woman, in fact, expressed disbelief that a scientist could [i]not believe in G-d, as he/she could not fail to notice G-d in everything he/she sees.

(what are these called- mishnas?).


Mishna is the oral Torah, given by HaShem at the same time as the written Torah. (It was later written down to prevent losing it, after the being expelled from Eretz Yisroel by the Romans. Gemara is the commentary on Torah – oral and written.

I'm mostly a big fan of more liberal forms of Judaism which are not as traditional [and do not engage in] blind obedience to 3,000 year old scripture.


Jews do not "blindly" obey anything. And the liberal forms of Judaism are not Judaism, which is why I've been becoming more observant of Jewish law. (E.g., I've now observed 7 consecutive Sabbaths, as a guest in various persons' homes inside the eruv.)

The fact is that Judaism is based on helping other Jews, often with an "us" vs "them" mentality.


No, it isn't. Judaism is based on observing Torah.

It is like a special club where members get an unfair social advantage.


Since when is it an "unfair social advantage" to help one's own people? Now you're just making stuff up altogether, along with the vast majority of your post (i.e., the one to which I presently respond).

But we have a society which is inherently aggressive towards non-Jews- constantly trying to rob them of status, of heritage, of identity etc. while promoting such things in Jews.


Jewish society is nothing like this. You are now finding ways to justify antisemitism.
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#58 33948

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

Thanks for your response. The fact that we have countless Christian sects (thousands) that all follow the same Bible and nearly as many Jewish groups all following the same torah and talmud we can say that the religion is a reflection of the people who practice it as much as it is a reflection of the book or dogma.

The argument between our two view points become "I saw a red car" and that is revoked with "I saw a blue car". It cannot be rectified by going back and forth. Although evidence and examples help.

Previously there was a post here that gentiles beleive they are entitled to something whereas a Jew has responsibilities. However, I have sense concluded that Judaism is a system of privilege. A person doesn't need to obey any laws to be Jewish. Mostly it is about ancestry. At the same time there are benefits to being a Jew.

When Michael Eisner was appointed CEO of Disney he purged the company of goyim and hired Jews at all the highest positions.

Michael Medved boasted: “The famous Disney organization, which was founded by Walt Disney, a gentile Midwesterner who allegedly harbored anti-semitic attitudes, now features Jewish personnel in nearly all its most powerful positions.”

Now what would you think if a goy took over a business and started firing Jews and replacing them with his own people and then these people boast about it?

"Yet despite the lack of Jewish worship and observance, and my family's total assimilation into everything American and secular, we were thoroughly Jewish. Our perspective was Jewish, as was our very essence. The world was split into two distinct halves: Jews and gentiles. Jews were always sought in business or social dealings over gentiles. A common expression used by Jews to describe a slow, dense person was—and still is—'He's got a goyisher kop,' which literally means 'He's got a gentile head' but figuratively means 'slow-witted.' First question when I came home and boasted of making a new friend always was 'Is he Jewish?' 'God forbid!' (my father's expression) if I should ever go out with a gentile girl, and 'Oy vey!' (which literally means 'Oh pain!') if I ever got serious with her. All my parents' friends were Jews. They all shared the same role models: Sandy Koufax, Bernard Baruch, Bess Meyerson, Sam Levinson, Hank Greenberg, Arthur Goldberg, Golda Meir, Albert Einstein—these were people to be admired. And that poet with the beard, Allen Ginsberg, so smart, but the faygeleh (homosexual) business, such a waste!"—S. G. Bloom, Postville: A Clash of Cultures in Heartland America, Harcourt, Inc., New York, (2000), pp. 63-64.

#59 33948

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

I dislike nearly all religions and cultural ethos' though. The reason being that society today is not focused on excellence or self improvement. If I say to someone "you did not dress well today. Perhaps you can make a better impression by xxx" the person will nearly spit in my face, and say

"I'm offended by that! Screw you!" maybe he wants me to lose my job or threatens me with physical violence.

By contrast if someone made such a comment to me I say "thank you. I'm glad for an opportunity to better myself" so long as this person doesn't become annoying and simply bringing up negativity with the point of hurting and nothing more.

In Judaism there is at least some degree of respect for personal growth, debate, analysis etc. so I think Judaism is close to my ideal religion compared to others.

Also: Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, Asatru and Taoism are tolerant of other people's religions. In Buddhism, for example, a person can find Nirvana without being Buddhist. Only Christianity and Islam seem to be intolerant.

I think also a distinction must be made between most Jews and Jewish leaders. The average Jew is aware of the favoritism, ignores it and benefits from it in some small way. The hard core Jewish extremists are usually the ones that dedicate themselves to organizing into Federations etc. and show a much stronger ethno-centrism.

Here is an example: I see classes and lectures about how "we are Jews that live in (russia, the united states, mexico etc.) but we are not (russian, american etc.). We must understand that we live among them but we are not part of them!

Yet when it comes time to partake in social welfare, drive on the roads, enjoy the comforts afforded by the nation etc. then they are fully American. When it comes time to give back and have a sense of brotherhood with others- they are a people apart and should not mingle.

Why can't someone be both Jewish and also American? Why are the two mutually incompatible? And why do Jewish communities teach that the two are incompatible?

#60 Mordy8888

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:47 AM

anything can be spun to mean anything. That does not mean that Jewish law ever justifies abusive behavior. We, as Jews, are clearly directed to be moral in ALL our actions, not just in those that involve Jews. And anyone who is truly devoted to Hashem, knows that all abusive behavior is offensive to Hashem, not just abusive behavior to other Jews. Further, anyone who behaves in an immoral manner, is really no longer a Jew, but a Gentile in actuality and a Jew in name only.




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