Jump to content


Photo

San Francisco Set to Vote on Circumcision Ban


  • Please log in to reply
267 replies to this topic

#261 comfortingsong

comfortingsong

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 31 July 2011 - 05:59 PM

I'm not saying it should be illegal for them, like San Francisco wants; rather, I am saying that it should become taboo for them.

I don't find that this clarification makes the original statement any more sound.

#262 paganyid

paganyid

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 694 posts

Posted 02 August 2011 - 11:03 PM

I actually was rather clear about it from the start. It's an irreversible procedure that the boy may have a different opinion about when he gets older, and that he can do for himself when he gets older. If it's a because-god-said-so issue, there's not much to talk about, because you should also slaughter your child on the mountain if god says so, so I can't argue that.

But I'd be against cutting off earlobes, labia, foreskins, or any other body part based on some tradition or superstition when it's something that -
1. cannot be unddone
2. is not a clear deformity where there's REALLY GOOD REASON to believe the child would want it (i.e. cleft palate, facial birthmark)
3. Is significant (i.e. more than ear piercing, which can sort of be undone anyway)
4. Can be done within reason when the child is old enough to choose

Not because it's painful. Not because of some known negative consequence. But because you are altering a person's body in a significant irreversible way before he's had a say in the matter on something where there's no clear consensus about which thing he'd want.

I don't know where I stand on this on the religious freedom spectrum. Many kids might find their yeshiva educations more traumatic than their circumcisions. I'm rambling. I was just in Monsey. I'll clarify more later. But the basics of it is, my primary objection to circumcision would parallel my objection to chopping off earlobes or labia.


How come you're so intent on taking parent's choice away from how they raise their kids... You want to make this state a great big government orphanage? You hate parents!

#263 Razie

Razie

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 02 August 2011 - 11:32 PM

I don't know where I stand on this on the religious freedom spectrum.

How come you're so intent on taking parent's choice away from how they raise their kids...

yfd

#264 Tel Aviv

Tel Aviv

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 401 posts

Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:02 AM

How come you're so intent on taking parent's choice away from how they raise their kids... You want to make this state a great big government orphanage? You hate parents!


You know, what would really be helpful here is to see some statistics on adults that are circumcised that regret it and wished a law prevented the procedure from happening. I have a feeling that the percent would be zero: I've never heard of any individual wishing that they had their foreskin back.


On a separate note, do females find a penis with the foreskin intact to be more attractive or less attractive?



Sometimes I wonder why some elites work so hard in an unethical manner to gain wealth and power: they can't take any of their wealth and power with them when they die. Philosophically looking at it, if there is a G-d, they will have an eternity of suffering to pay for their crimes against humanity. And if there is no G-d, then once they die, they will have no memories and conscious awareness of their success in life because their consciousness and memories are lost for eternity, becoming nothing more than dirt in the ground. So, these elites in the end lose either way. The 100 years of life living like a king is just a drop of water in the infinite ocean of time that they will experience suffering at the hands of G-d, or not experience in a state of non-existence.

#265 Razie

Razie

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:24 AM

I have a feeling that the percent would be zero: I've never heard of any individual wishing that they had their foreskin back.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=foreskin%20restoration&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.&fp=e88d11602cf2fea7&biw=1349&bih=715&pf=p&pdl=500

http://www.norm.org/

#266 Rentsy

Rentsy

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,005 posts

Posted 03 August 2011 - 01:35 AM

Well, we do indeed have many cases of Jews who were not circumcised by their parents, and when they grew up they took matters into their own hands, by enlisting the services of a specially trained mohel and medical team to monitor the drastic effects of adult circumcision, which is not quite the party of infant circumcision. It's a much more painful and serious procedure that they certainly would have rather have had done when they were infants.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#267 Savannah

Savannah

    ~*~ pixie smile ~*~

  • Members
  • 20,505 posts

Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:49 AM

On a separate note, do females find a penis with the foreskin intact to be more attractive or less attractive?

Preference generally depends on what someone is used to seeing.

#268 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:40 AM

Are there no people who have been circumcised after they were already sexually active? Lets ask them if they feel that there was a (marked) difference in sexual pleasure, before and after the circumcision.
obviously even their statements wouldn't be conclusive or qualify as a proper study with control groups and variables etc, but it would certainly be valuable information....

ETA: I see where I didnt quite complete my thought, and filled it in in italics. sorry...


Here we go: http://www.hashkafah...ost__p__1652883

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users