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#21 starwolf

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:10 AM

Welcome home, Rachel.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#22 Jennifer

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:32 AM

Welcome back! :)

#23 rachel b.

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:00 AM

We're here, yay! The trip was rough, last night was rough, with the kids. We're tired. The group flight was pretty low-key, but in the end, we were glad, because we were able to get out relatively quickly. Thank Gd for nefesh b'nefesh, i wish those people would follow me around for the next month or so, it's so nice to be looked after, taken care of, photographed, congratulated, expedited!
P, I didn't see anything on the laptop. Noya was so nice though, everyone was. Question - is it worth for all of us to go to the offices tomorrow for the TZ distribution? Or should just my husband go? Is it like a party?

#24 Pinchas

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:19 AM

We're here, yay! The trip was rough, last night was rough, with the kids. We're tired. The group flight was pretty low-key, but in the end, we were glad, because we were able to get out relatively quickly. Thank Gd for nefesh b'nefesh, i wish those people would follow me around for the next month or so, it's so nice to be looked after, taken care of, photographed, congratulated, expedited!
P, I didn't see anything on the laptop. Noya was so nice though, everyone was. Question - is it worth for all of us to go to the offices tomorrow for the TZ distribution? Or should just my husband go? Is it like a party?


Well, is it in our offices? (We are doing construction now, so the only place to hold it is one the porch outside.) But yes, I think it's nice. They usually have food and you can meet with more of the wonderful staff if you have more questions.

Per the PC tablet, that whole thing is my baby. I wrote the program that pulls out your data and fills out the paperwork for you. Very cool stuff. (I actually never even see any of the paperwork - it all gets generated automatically.)

Noya was great, she brought back Hershey's chocolate! :)

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#25 rachel b.

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:08 AM

Did you people who made aliyah spend the first few weeks thinking, what am i DOING here?
it seems so hard to find our place here. literally, like our physical place - it's like we came a few years too late and everything nice is super pricey.
and spiritually...where do we belong here? where to send our kids to school and even what neighborhood we will pick is defined by who we are hashkafically. and we just don't know yet! we just got here and are barely familiar with the options!

#26 starwolf

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 03:33 AM

Did you people who made aliyah spend the first few weeks thinking, what am i DOING here?


No, but my situation was different than yours.

it seems so hard to find our place here. literally, like our physical place - it's like we came a few years too late and everything nice is super pricey.
and spiritually...where do we belong here? where to send our kids to school and even what neighborhood we will pick is defined by who we are hashkafically. and we just don't know yet! we just got here and are barely familiar with the options!


This is very common, and in my opinion is the most difficult thing about aliya. There are many options, and establishing a list of orders of priority is really important for good decision making. Each decision comes with a lot of bureaucracy, so be prepared.

Your story about the desirable places to live being too pricey is well-known to me personally.

It is clear that the decision for buying a place to live depends on the economics, and just as important--the schools. Schools are of course related to hashkafa, and it's really a good idea to know about the options, and to hear opinions from people who have children in the system. Know in advance that you may not find a school that is perfectly suited to your hashkafa--the goal is to find the one that is as close as possible. And it is never too early to start looking.

I don't know if NBN has such networking, but a traditional place for such advice is the Association for Americans and Canadians in Israel. It is worth making an appointment and paying them a visit.

You can always post specific questions here, in the hope that someone on the forums has personal experience with some of your possible choices.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#27 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 04:05 AM

I HATED it when I got here (before I made aliyah) and despite the fact that I LOVED yeshiva, EVERYTHING about Israel annoyed me. The heat, the food, the poor quality meet and cheese, the low standard of living, the tiny apartments, the rude people, even the doorknobs (or lack of them), so much so that I was counting down the days till I left and could rejoin civilization. Then when I got on the plane, while it was still sitting on the runway, it hit me and I thought to myself "what the hell am I doing?" and I knew I would be back in a short time, probably for good. A little over 5 months later I was back and it's been over 10 years since and I really don't look back. I've been back to the US countless times since then and really have no desire to move back there anymore...

But for me it was easier because I was a single guy that could move around and see what was out there and I HAVE been everywhere from Mea Shearim, to the hills of the shomron, to Chevron, from the old city to now East Jerusalem. There are many wonderful communities and each has what to offer. It is understandably much more difficult with a family. The best advice I can give is don't box yourself in at the beginning and try a few things out and see how they go. And stay away from homogeneous communities with tightly controlled standards of behavior some places are a LOT more flexible than others...

Finding your place is hard and after over 13 years here, I still haven't. And I wonder if it even exists 100%, but one of the things I like about Israel is the ability (within certain guidelines) to "do your own thing"...

As for schools I really don't know what to tell you. I think about this all the time and honestly have NO idea where I would send my kids... Hopefully by then there will be a suitable school for future K Rebbes...
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#28 lyric

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:01 AM

The whole idea of chareidi secular education ending at fourteen or earlier, an anathema to me. You are pigeonholed by what school you send your kids to; if you want them to have a reasonable secular eduction past that age, you are not chareidi. My daughter who lives in Israel and has 8 kids is succumbing to that pigeonholing; We find her kids quite ignorant in the ways of the world and general knowledge. I'm not sure what my son (who only has two very young girlies so far) will do when the situation arises for him.

We have a neighbour in Shaarei Chessed who is, IMO, frum enough for anyone, but has chosen to send her boys away (not sure where but somewhere out of J'lem) to be educated past 14, and is therefore considered a bit of a renegade.

Secular education (lack of) is probably a major factor that has put off my London-living kids from making aliya.
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#29 starwolf

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:14 AM

Rachel,
if you don't mind my asking, where do you wish to live, and how do you see yourself hashkafically?

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#30 happyduck1979

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:10 AM

Rachel,

1) Have you called the local nbn rep for help? If it is still the same person as when we came she is really nice and very helpful.

2) I would honestly not bother with AACI, we found them to be totally useless if you were not living in Jerusalem or over 60.

3) Have you spoken to someone who really knows the schools yet? We had a hard time picking where we wanted to send shorty, but after discussions both with other parents and with people who knew the school systems the choice was a lot easier to make.

4) Housing around here right now is outrageous. I know renting seems like throwing away money, but remember, you only get your first home zechuyot once. It might make more sense to rent to make sure you really like a neighbourhood before spending on a mortgage- especially around here where one block to another really can make an enormous difference.

5) I was not around to properly welcome you over the last few weeks as I was in and out of Ein Karem- do you want to get together for coffee or something one day this week and I can try to answer as much as I can about life around here? Based on where you told me you were looking I think you are fairly close to me- would meeting some more local women help?

6) I can not seem to send you a pm, but please feel free to give me a call. You can find me in shemeshphone under swir on habsor.
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

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#31 Pinchas

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:28 AM

I went through some tough times as well. Of course it's a completely set of issues you deal with as a single but things were tough. At one point - long story - I found myself all alone in a moldy dirty (from construction) apartment with sporadic electricity and no gas (and lousy water too). Good air conditioner though when the power was on. I was literally in tears but thank G-d things got significantly better - to say the least. I think it must be part of Hashem's hazing process.

Remember, Aliyah is a HUGE move - don't minimize it! It's not at all like moving to Teaneck. That it'll take time, and even a long time to settle in is quite normal. But you always have to remember why you decided to make Aliyah.

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#32 Shoshi

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 12:26 PM

The whole idea of chareidi secular education ending at fourteen or earlier, an anathema to me. You are pigeonholed by what school you send your kids to; if you want them to have a reasonable secular eduction past that age, you are not chareidi. My daughter who lives in Israel and has 8 kids is succumbing to that pigeonholing; We find her kids quite ignorant in the ways of the world and general knowledge. I'm not sure what my son (who only has two very young girlies so far) will do when the situation arises for him.

We have a neighbour in Shaarei Chessed who is, IMO, frum enough for anyone, but has chosen to send her boys away (not sure where but somewhere out of J'lem) to be educated past 14, and is therefore considered a bit of a renegade.

Secular education (lack of) is probably a major factor that has put off my London-living kids from making aliya.


Well, the "whole idea of charedi education" and lifestyle is pretty much minimizing one's exposure to secular ideas.
So it stands to reason that "charedi secular education" would be lacking.
But there are fine resources for a good secular education in Israel, and no one has to compromise religious beliefs to do so.
Why not send your kids/grandchildren to a dati leumi school? That way they get both religious and secular education at a high level.

#33 Pinchas

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 12:35 PM

Well, the "whole idea of charedi education" and lifestyle is pretty much minimizing one's exposure to secular ideas.
So it stands to reason that "charedi secular education" would be lacking.
But there are fine resources for a good secular education in Israel, and no one has to compromise religious beliefs to do so.
Why not send your kids/grandchildren to a dati leumi school? That way they get both religious and secular education at a high level.


I don't think you're helping or appreciating the "American black hatter" value system with this suggestion.

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For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#34 Shoshi

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:38 PM

I don't think you're helping or appreciating the "American black hatter" value system with this suggestion.


I understand that there is no real equivalent of "American black hatter" in Israel (although lyric, who complained about the lack of charedi secular education in Israel is not American, actually, but British I believe.)

I think the closest to it might be what is called "charedi leumi" in Israel, a very small group.

If I'm not mistaken, charedi leumi, or "chardal" is mostly incorporated into the dati leumi or Modern Orthodox group/sector in Israel, just simply more machmir religiously. There is also dati leumi Torani, or a more frum sector of dati leumi/MO Jews in Israel. Some American black hatters who don't feel comfortable in the charedi community in Israel (for a variety of reasons) might feel comfortable in these communities.

#35 Yakkov

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 01:49 AM

From someone who lives in Canada, how much lower are living standards?

#36 starwolf

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 02:46 AM

From someone who lives in Canada, how much lower are living standards?


There are several things to take into account.

Many things are much more expensive in Israel. Foremost among them are buying and maintaining a car. A great many 2 car families in North America become 1-car families in Israel.

I find housing here to be much more expensive than in North America.

A major thing to take into account is school. If, in North America, your children attend private school, this will be a major saving for you in Israel. Even most private schools cost less than in NA, and if you can find a public school suitable for you, then you are golden.

If you insist on eating foodstuffs imported from NA, your food expenses will be more. If however, you eat Israeli foodstuffs, then you food expenses will be about equal.

If you like NA fast-food, it will cost you much more than a similar meal in the US. If you adapt to Israeli food, your expenses on that front will be about the same as in NA--and you'll be healthier to boot.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#37 rachel b.

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 03:29 AM

Rachel,
if you don't mind my asking, where do you wish to live, and how do you see yourself hashkafically?


We are in RBSA for a year or two while we look for a small, centrally located Torani yishuv where we can afford a nice house. Places on our list to check out are Mitzpe Yericho, Even Shmuel, Mevo Choron. My husband wears colored shirts and doesn't have a black hat. I don't show any hair but i don't wear socks/hose in the summer. We eat Mehadrin. Our kids are too little for me to categorize us in that way - I don't know yet about army or all the dividing lines that come with school attendance. Maybe we are chardal? I want to put my daughter in a private gan for one more year before we have to make a school decision (she'll be 4 in November). Our kids' secular education is very important to us and we want to make sure they are well trained for a useful high-paying profession (not writers like my husband and I). We like the Rav Kook style. What is that called?

HD, can we come over some afternoon for a playdate? I'll call you. And I'll clean out my PM box.

K-rebbe, thanks for your nice and sympathetic message. I like you when you're nice!

#38 Yakkov

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:15 AM

There are several things to take into account.

Many things are much more expensive in Israel. Foremost among them are buying and maintaining a car. A great many 2 car families in North America become 1-car families in Israel.

I find housing here to be much more expensive than in North America.

A major thing to take into account is school. If, in North America, your children attend private school, this will be a major saving for you in Israel. Even most private schools cost less than in NA, and if you can find a public school suitable for you, then you are golden.

If you insist on eating foodstuffs imported from NA, your food expenses will be more. If however, you eat Israeli foodstuffs, then you food expenses will be about equal.

If you like NA fast-food, it will cost you much more than a similar meal in the US. If you adapt to Israeli food, your expenses on that front will be about the same as in NA--and you'll be healthier to boot.


Interesting, thanks.

From what you say I could see myself surviving somehow.

#39 happyduck1979

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:23 AM

Of course we can do a play date. In fact, would you and your family like to come for lunch this shabbat? Based on where you told me you were looking (you mentioned what shul you wanted to be near) it is about a 10 minute walk or so.
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

Empty Cradle, Empty Heart My thoughts, rants against God, and prayers after have a still birth of a very wanted little girl in February of 2011.
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Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
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#40 starwolf

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:59 AM

We are in RBSA for a year or two while we look for a small, centrally located Torani yishuv where we can afford a nice house. Places on our list to check out are Mitzpe Yericho, Even Shmuel, Mevo Choron. My husband wears colored shirts and doesn't have a black hat. I don't show any hair but i don't wear socks/hose in the summer. We eat Mehadrin. Our kids are too little for me to categorize us in that way - I don't know yet about army or all the dividing lines that come with school attendance. Maybe we are chardal? I want to put my daughter in a private gan for one more year before we have to make a school decision (she'll be 4 in November). Our kids' secular education is very important to us and we want to make sure they are well trained for a useful high-paying profession (not writers like my husband and I). We like the Rav Kook style. What is that called?


You sound like places like Nofei Aviv in Bet Shemesh might be a nice place for you. Bet Shemesh is a problematical place with the Hareidi/RZ tension now, but if that doesn't bother you too much, Aviv could be a nice fit. There are certainly many people there that have similar hashkafot to those that you describe.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.




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