Jump to content


Photo

S&P Downgrade


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 DQ

DQ

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,738 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 01:53 PM

I think it is unjustified and sinister. I wasn't long ago when banks with shitloads of toxic assets held on to their AAA ratings despite the glaring writings on the wall, and now they downgraded the US credit rating for it's politics?? Granted, the politicians are juvenile grandstanding idiots, but it is sheer chutzpah of S&P to downgrade the US's credit rating. That said, I hope this slap in the face will wake us from our slumber and bring about the necessary changes to our financial, as well as our political system.

#2 Snag

Snag

    הבל יפצה פי

  • Banned
  • 11,108 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 01:58 PM

does the downgrade have any practical effect? isn't it just informative, and, practically, all investors are aware of the us' financial issues?
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#3 DQ

DQ

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,738 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:08 PM

does the downgrade have any practical effect? isn't it just informative, and, practically, all investors are aware of the us' financial issues?


It might not have a direct effect but it sure effects the US in many ways not just financially, but politically, diplomatically and otherwise.

#4 Devils Advocate

Devils Advocate

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 626 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 03:01 PM

I think it's justified. If they didn't want a lower rating they should have done something to actually balance the budget and bring down the debt. Any other country with $14 trillion in debt would have a really horrible bond rating.

I think it's hillarious that the Tea Party is being blamed for the crisis and bond rating being lowered. Considering they are the only ones who weren't around when the debt was being racked up by corrupt liberals and conservatives, they are the only ones involved that actually have a leg to stand on.
The danger of ancient liberty was that men, exclusively concerned with securing their share of social power, might attach too little value to individual rights and enjoyments. The danger of modern liberty is that, absorbed in the enjoyment of our private independence, and in the pursuit of our particular interests, we should surrender our right to share in political power too easily. The holders of authority are only too anxious to encourage us to do so. They are so ready to spare us all sort of troubles, except those of obeying and paying! They will say to us: what, in the end, is the aim of your efforts, the motive of your labours, the object of all your hopes? Is it not happiness? Well, leave this happiness to us and we shall give it to you. No, Sirs, we must not leave it to them. No matter how touching such a tender commitment may be, let us ask the authorities to keep within their limits. Let them confine themselves to being just. We shall assume the responsibility of being happy for ourselves.
-Benjamin Constant

#5 Sweet

Sweet

    Passionately Ambivalent

  • Members
  • 6,949 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 03:21 PM

I think it's justified. If they didn't want a lower rating they should have done something to actually balance the budget and bring down the debt. Any other country with $14 trillion in debt would have a really horrible bond rating.

I think it's hillarious that the Tea Party is being blamed for the crisis and bond rating being lowered. Considering they are the only ones who weren't around when the debt was being racked up by corrupt liberals and conservatives, they are the only ones involved that actually have a leg to stand on.

I think the Tea Party should be blamed for it, if they are the ones responsible for the whole debt ceiling charade. The whole fight was whether to approve borrowing for a budget that they'd already voted on, so it was just an opportunity for them to grandstand. In addition, the cuts they made to Stafford student loans were poorly chosen - what they should have done is gradually phase out government sponsorship of loans, and the lack of bankrupcy protection on student loans.

And the whole stupid self celebratory theatrical production shot US in the face when it resulted in the downgrade, because now whatever piddling cuts they pretended to compromise on will be swept away under a torrent of extra interest payments.

Who the hell voted for these lunatics?
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#6 Moshi

Moshi

    Little Reb Sunshine

  • Members
  • 21,046 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 04:05 PM

I think it's justified. If they didn't want a lower rating they should have done something to actually balance the budget and bring down the debt. Any other country with $14 trillion in debt would have a really horrible bond rating.

I think it's hillarious that the Tea Party is being blamed for the crisis and bond rating being lowered. Considering they are the only ones who weren't around when the debt was being racked up by corrupt liberals and conservatives, they are the only ones involved that actually have a leg to stand on.


The debt ceiling was a vote to approve borrowing of money in order to pay for the budget this Congress -- including the glorious Tea Party -- appropriated this spring.
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~

#7 rvn2590

rvn2590

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 2,040 posts

Posted 08 August 2011 - 05:02 PM

The United States government should have had their credit rating reduced long before now - it is justified.
טובה הארץ מאד מאד

Rav Tal "The evil forces of the world are the leftists who act against sanctity."

#8 Pinchas

Pinchas

    Make Aliyah!

  • Members
  • 13,421 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:20 AM

does the downgrade have any practical effect? isn't it just informative, and, practically, all investors are aware of the us' financial issues?


Well the DOW fell 634 points... like the 6th worst fall in history...

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#9 brianna

brianna

    Sanctimonious Pleasure Seeker

  • Members
  • 13,655 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:23 AM

I think it is unjustified and sinister.

Part of what S&P does is they rate bonds. If you want your company rated you pay them to rate you and they have a responsibility to rate you honestly based on unbiased financial criteria. The downgrade is a reflection of the irresponsible financial behavior of the US government. They keep spending and spending far beyond what they should be. The so called "cuts" are based on an assumed yearly spending increase and are miniscule in the scheme of things. Mack's Penny Plan would cut one penny out of every dollar currently spent by the federal government and allow no automatic spending increases. It would cut an estimated $7.5 trillion over the next ten years - and that's real spending not Washington spin. But the government is so addicted to power and people are so addicted to entitlements that I doubt any real reform will happen.
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#10 Psychodad

Psychodad

    88

  • Members
  • 7,376 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:09 AM

Part of what S&P does is they rate bonds. If you want your company rated you pay them to rate you and they have a responsibility to rate you honestly based on unbiased financial criteria. The downgrade is a reflection of the irresponsible financial behavior of the US government. They keep spending and spending far beyond what they should be. The so called "cuts" are based on an assumed yearly spending increase and are miniscule in the scheme of things. Mack's Penny Plan would cut one penny out of every dollar currently spent by the federal government and allow no automatic spending increases. It would cut an estimated $7.5 trillion over the next ten years - and that's real spending not Washington spin. But the government is so addicted to power and people are so addicted to entitlements that I doubt any real reform will happen.

Thank you, Sean Hannity

#11 brianna

brianna

    Sanctimonious Pleasure Seeker

  • Members
  • 13,655 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:19 AM

Thank you, Sean Hannity

I haven't listened to Sean Hannity in years (work schedule and all). But the truth is the truth.

Do you think S&P should have been dishonest and said everything is fine when it isn't? What were they supposed to do?
Certainly there is no shortage of married, left-wing harlots who do not cover their hair. Although, they're probably busy sacrificing their children to Ba‛al and filing divorce papers. ~ Milton

"Are you including as shomer negiya someone who is sleeping with his girlfriend but not shaking hands with the car dealer?" ~ Moshi

"Some people like their corn flakes soggy, other people get off on repression and guilt." ~ Sweet

Notice of New Policy: I now ask people permission before using their quotes.

#12 Psychodad

Psychodad

    88

  • Members
  • 7,376 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:44 AM

I haven't listened to Sean Hannity in years (work schedule and all). But the truth is the truth.

Do you think S&P should have been dishonest and said everything is fine when it isn't? What were they supposed to do?

First question should be why they differ from the other 2 large credit rating agencies.
I'm not saying that the US doesn't have fiscal problems, but they need to explain what changed that resulted in the downgrade. The only thing they can point to is the fear that resulted from the bickering in Washington over the debt ceiling increase. I don't think that is a substantial reason to cut the credit rating.

#13 Sweet

Sweet

    Passionately Ambivalent

  • Members
  • 6,949 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 01:02 PM

First question should be why they differ from the other 2 large credit rating agencies.
I'm not saying that the US doesn't have fiscal problems, but they need to explain what changed that resulted in the downgrade. The only thing they can point to is the fear that resulted from the bickering in Washington over the debt ceiling increase. I don't think that is a substantial reason to cut the credit rating.

It's not just the fear. We were this close to not passing the debt ceiling. If that had happened, the debt would have been as likely an expenditure as any to not be paid.
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#14 Psychodad

Psychodad

    88

  • Members
  • 7,376 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 01:25 PM

If that had happened, the debt would have been as likely an expenditure as any to not be paid.

I would say that's not true at all.

#15 33948

33948

    Shtark

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:32 PM

Why doesn't the media or politicians talk about the truth- half our spending is on military. That is a bigger problem than entitlements. We can give out billions of dollars in bribes to rogue nations and tribal lords, who then use this money to buy weapons to shoot at our soldiers, and this spending is not put into question. Yet a 90 year old getting $900 a month in social security needs to take one for the team.

The U.S. spends more on military than the rest of the world combined. Yet again this is not even brought into the debate of why we have debt?? "nope can't cut the military. It's too important"

What is the mission in Iraq anyway? It's open ended, there's no clear objective except seemingly to spend money and lose lives.

The problem with entitlements has to do with the huge increase in health care costs every year as well rather than actually cutting someone a check. The health care system is extremely corrupt. Meanwhile The Obama administrations solution- force everyone to buy into the inefficient system??

Most doctors will give you 100 x-rays you don't need, sell you $150 a bottle pills that you don't need and try to talk you into a $200,000 surgery you don't need. People further often don't care because either insurance or government is paying for it. That's the whole source of the entitlement problem right there, along with paying poor people to have babies and giving immigrants (who don't pay taxes) entitlements.

#16 Moshi

Moshi

    Little Reb Sunshine

  • Members
  • 21,046 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 05:02 PM

Mack's Penny Plan would cut one penny out of every dollar currently spent by the federal government and allow no automatic spending increases.


"Mack's Penny Plan" ?!! That's quite the marketing gimmick. Is this what's making the rounds among the dittoheads?

What's a penny between friends, right?
The L-rd may not come when you call, but He's always on time. -Lemon Andersen

Kabel et ha-emet mi-mi she-omro.

"All is by the hand of Heaven, except colds and fevers" -Ketubot 30a.

~My Blog~

#17 Xi

Xi

    -->

  • Banned
  • 6,300 posts

Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:05 PM

I think it is unjustified and sinister. I wasn't long ago when banks with shitloads of toxic assets held on to their AAA ratings despite the glaring writings on the wall, and now they downgraded the US credit rating for it's politics?? Granted, the politicians are juvenile grandstanding idiots, but it is sheer chutzpah of S&P to downgrade the US's credit rating. That said, I hope this slap in the face will wake us from our slumber and bring about the necessary changes to our financial, as well as our political system.

The idiotic part was not so much the downgrade itself as much as the fact that they couldn't get their facts straight first.

I think it's justified. If they didn't want a lower rating they should have done something to actually balance the budget and bring down the debt. Any other country with $14 trillion in debt would have a really horrible bond rating.

I believe it goes by percentage of GDP, not real numbers. Our debt burden is not that much higher than other countries, percentage-wise.

And the whole stupid self celebratory theatrical production shot US in the face when it resulted in the downgrade, because now whatever piddling cuts they pretended to compromise on will be swept away under a torrent of extra interest payments.

Right, because yields have increased dramatically...

ETA: Japan has been paying nearly zero in interest since they were downgrading. Treasuries are still the most liquid assets out there, are still far safer than stocks, and are still needed by China to keep the yuan artificially low. And in the long run, the Tea Party ideas will slow the growth of our debt, which will be a good thing once recession fears abate and China changes its business model.
Xi is intimidating, in an endearing sort of way. --Gretchen

#18 Xi

Xi

    -->

  • Banned
  • 6,300 posts

Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:12 PM

Do you think S&P should have been dishonest and said everything is fine when it isn't? What were they supposed to do?

Not saying the downgrade is unjustified, but what they should've done is not change their reasoning at the last moment.

I would say that's not true at all.

Ditto.
Xi is intimidating, in an endearing sort of way. --Gretchen

#19 Sweet

Sweet

    Passionately Ambivalent

  • Members
  • 6,949 posts

Posted 13 August 2011 - 11:24 PM

Right, because yields have increased dramatically...

ETA: Japan has been paying nearly zero in interest since they were downgrading. Treasuries are still the most liquid assets out there, are still far safer than stocks, and are still needed by China to keep the yuan artificially low. And in the long run, the Tea Party ideas will slow the growth of our debt, which will be a good thing once recession fears abate and China changes its business model.

As it happens, the yields ended up going down, on the basis of unprecedented volatility in the stock market. It doesn't matter. The debt rating has a very straightforward purpose - to know how much interest to charge. The way it worked out this one time is immaterial, and it stands to reason that at some point over the time that the rating is lower, the US will pay higher interest because of it.

The truth is that in general, I would be in favor of greater fiscal responsibility over raising the debt ceiling. It is not the policy that makes me so upset at the Republicans/Tea Party as much as it's these buffoons who put it forth. Where was the Tea Party, or at least the elements in the Republican Party who represent them, when Bush was attacking Iraq? What did they contribute to the national debate other than the ridiculous birth certificate thing and a little splash of racism, before this? There was no intent to accomplish anything here, and the proof is that supporters on both sides are annoyed at the result.

All they intended to do was take the bloom off Obama's rose, and in the process, they were willing to risk something that is far far greater than what they would have accomplished in a best-case scenario. In the long run, it won't matter, hopefully. The yield hasn't risen yet, and Michelle Bachman still has a smaller chance of being elected president than I do.

BTW, welcome back! We missed you.
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#20 Monte Cristo

Monte Cristo

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,752 posts

Posted 14 August 2011 - 11:50 PM

While I'm no fan of the credit rating agencies (these people rated many mortgage backed securities backed by subprime mortgages as AAA and gave Bernie Madoff a similar rating even though everyone knew he was a fraud) I can't challenge the logic. Our spends more money than it "earns" in "tax revenue", has been doing so for decades and like a true drug addict wants us to give it more money because this time it'll kick the habit (just anyone whose had the "joy" of having to live with a drug addict how true and angering that statement is).

Until our government stops spending our money I can't object to our credit rating being lowered. And given how the clowns in Washington D.C. act I can't see real spending cuts occuring anytime soon, at least voluntarily.
1) "I pray my wife has a sex addiction, because I'm more than happy to be an enabler" - Frummy frum
2) "Hanukah is about throwing spears at people who assimilate" - Rentsy
3) "Are you trying to say that consummating one's marriage is bittul Torah?" - Savannah
4) "Men are so insecure in their sexuality. If they see two men with a deep friendship -- gay. If they see a man who isn't constantly lusting after women -- gay" - Savannah
5) "Isn't a divine hora'at sha'ah an even better license to kill than whatever James Bond has?" - Rentsy
"D*mn right" - Snag
6) "Facebook is spiritual chametz, because one becomes inflated with one's sense self importance while sitting around doing nothing" - Rentsy
7) "I always thought belle was a woman........am i wrong?" - Village
8) "When searching for the common denominator for all the members of this site (marketing purposes), I discovered that all the participating members are 'black sheep' in their own cirlces. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked" - Silent J
9) "oy. bible porn. that seems wrong" - Jewess
"I didn't write the script!" - Moshi
10) "I was recently involved in a discussion about the "Yeshiva Uniform", you know where jeans epitomize Satan, and God dresses like an Oreo cookie...." - Isreali4ever




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users