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Vacationing alone

Near NY

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#21 greentiger

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:14 AM

One's family might object to a camping trip for the guy on Rosh hashana, but feel compelled to let the guy go for a "spiritual experience". And while I do not doubt that for some it is a spiritual experience, for others it is an excuse to carouse, without which they would be stuck at home with the ol' ball-and-chain.

I am not about to claim that every last guy showing up in uman has the most noble intentions in mind. I am sure there are enough escaping from their families but id say those wives are better off with their husbands out of the way anyhow. I have just met enough men who go every year and have spoken to enough of them for their reasons going that i despise the accusations that uman is one big bachelor party on rh. Some of those guys going are of the most selfless, non material men i have ever met, and can trust them when they report the vast majority are there to pray. Sure my friend living in uman reports there are frum guys renting women, but its neither the norm nor the majority.

One's family might object to a camping trip for the guy on Rosh hashana, but feel compelled to let the guy go for a "spiritual experience". And while I do not doubt that for some it is a spiritual experience, for others it is an excuse to carouse, without which they would be stuck at home with the ol' ball-and-chain.

I am not about to claim that every last guy showing up in uman has the most noble intentions in mind. I am sure there are enough escaping from their families but id say those wives are better off with their husbands out of the way anyhow. I have just met enough men who go every year and have spoken to enough of them for their reasons going that i despise the accusations that uman is one big bachelor party on rh. Some of those guys going are of the most selfless, non material men i have ever met, and can trust them when they report the vast majority are there to pray. Sure my friend living in uman reports there are frum guys renting women, but its neither the norm nor the majority.
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#22 starwolf

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:04 AM

Could anyone imagine what would happen if there was a movement for women to leave their homes on a Yom Tov and gather together for a spiritual occasion--say in Krakow at the tomb of Sara Schnirer, or in E"Y at the (supposed) tomb of Dvorah?

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#23 greentiger

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 01:46 PM

What would happen? Why should anyone care where another woman spends her yom tov?
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#24 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:14 PM

Could anyone imagine what would happen if there was a movement for women to leave their homes on a Yom Tov and gather together for a spiritual occasion--say in Krakow at the tomb of Sara Schnirer, or in E"Y at the (supposed) tomb of Dvorah?

That's ridiculous, who would cook, serve, clean up and take care of the kids??? :rolleyes:
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#25 greentiger

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:33 PM

That's ridiculous, who would cook, serve, clean up and take care of the kids??? :rolleyes:

Aren't the kids meant to come with them? You actually think the kids can stay with their father?? Cook-the woman does before she leaves, duh. And clean up can be done when she gets back, but serve-he's gotta fend for himself a bit yano.
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If a man stands in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

#26 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:19 PM

Aren't the kids meant to come with them? You actually think the kids can stay with their father??

Exactly my point! Neither option seems particularly feasible....
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#27 comfortingsong

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:49 PM

Aren't the kids meant to come with them? You actually think the kids can stay with their father??

I got a similar reaction, on a much smaller scale, during my vacation planning. I tried to ask some sisters in law to come along with me on a short 3-5 hour trip, all of whom have 1-2 small children. Everyone was confused regarding who I thought would watch the children during that time. Keeping in mind that all the children are on bottles or able to be eat food (none of these specific children are dependent on their mothers for nursing), I was surprised they wouldn't be comfortable leaving them with their fathers for a short time. One of my sisters in law responded that maybe for an hour, but more than 2 hours seems too much. My reaction was just: :huh:

I don't know. Maybe some women think their husbands can't handle 1-2 children for 4 hours. I don't know - maybe they can't?

#28 Xi

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:45 PM

I don't know. Maybe some women think their husbands can't handle 1-2 children for 4 hours. I don't know - maybe they can't?

My husband will (or he'll learn to). Just saying.

No reason a man shouldn't be able to handle it.
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#29 comfortingsong

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:49 PM

My husband will (or he'll learn to). Just saying.

:good:

No reason a man shouldn't be able to handle it.

I definitely agree on a personal level, and I can't personally imagine raising kids with someone that I didn't think can handle being with the kid/s alone for a few hours - but I guess: to each her own.

If it's not my marriage and it doesn't affect me personally, I try not to judge.

#30 Xi

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:52 PM

If it's not my marriage and it doesn't affect me personally, I try not to judge.

I don't think it's a marriage issue as much as a society issue.
Xi is intimidating, in an endearing sort of way. --Gretchen

#31 comfortingsong

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:01 PM

I don't think it's a marriage issue as much as a society issue.

True. Keep in mind, though, that these people choose to live in a society in which this is the norm, so I guess they're comfortable with it.

#32 starwolf

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:01 PM

I have no problem with my wife taking a few days off for a vacation alone or with friends. Of course, it depends on if I can shift things around at work to accommodate the additional duties, but we have done this kind of thing before.

I would be much less understanding if it were for a spiritual retreat on a yom tov.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#33 greentiger

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 12:09 AM

I have no problem with my wife taking a few days off for a vacation alone or with friends. Of course, it depends on if I can shift things around at work to accommodate the additional duties, but we have done this kind of thing before.

I would be much less understanding if it were for a spiritual retreat on a yom tov.

So for her to have fun you are willing to make sacrifices for her, but for something she feels is important to her spirituality, you aren't?

I don't think it's a marriage issue as much as a society issue.

Which society is that?
Treat each day as your last; one day you will be right

If a man stands in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

#34 starwolf

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:01 AM

So for her to have fun you are willing to make sacrifices for her, but for something she feels is important to her spirituality, you aren't?

I feel that relaxing as one sees fit is important for overall health. I do not see the spiritual value of gathering by the grave of a tzaddik, especially one in such a place as Uman. Perhaps my wife could convince me of this if she herself believed it, but as she does not, I don't have much of a problem. However, on a theoretical basis, I would be willing to listen to her reasons for wanting to go to such a place. I would not find it acceptable for her to do so on a Yom Tov, which I feel should be spent with family. How lucky for me that I married a woman with that same hashkafa.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#35 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 05:24 AM

I don't know. Maybe some women think their husbands can't handle 1-2 children for 4 hours. I don't know - maybe they can't?

I'm sure they CAN, the question is whether or not they are WILLING, and what state the kids (and the HOUSE) will be in when you finish gallivanting around...

My husband will (or he'll learn to). Just saying.

No reason a man shouldn't be able to handle it.

See above...
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#36 greentiger

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:54 AM

I feel that relaxing as one sees fit is important for overall health. I do not see the spiritual value of gathering by the grave of a tzaddik, especially one in such a place as Uman. Perhaps my wife could convince me of this if she herself believed it, but as she does not, I don't have much of a problem. However, on a theoretical basis, I would be willing to listen to her reasons for wanting to go to such a place. I would not find it acceptable for her to do so on a Yom Tov, which I feel should be spent with family. How lucky for me that I married a woman with that same hashkafa.

So you think splitting up for yt or not is a decision every couple can make for themselves based on their own hashkafa. Great.
Treat each day as your last; one day you will be right

If a man stands in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

#37 starwolf

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:10 AM

So you think splitting up for yt or not is a decision every couple can make for themselves based on their own hashkafa. Great.

Of course it is. I just wouldn't go for it.
Disapproving of something is one thing. Attempting to foist your standards on someone else who is unrelated to you is another thing.
And supporting such behavior is something else altogether.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#38 Belle

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:26 AM

I'm sure they CAN, the question is whether or not they are WILLING, and what state the kids (and the HOUSE) will be in when you finish gallivanting around...


Here's a thought: I'm not always willing to care for my kid every second of every day that I'm not at work. Nor am I always willing to care for her when my husband is in the mood of going out with the boys to chill or going to a wedding. But I do it. And what kind of a man would he be if he wouldn't reciprocate?
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#39 Cassandra

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:42 AM

So you think splitting up for yt or not is a decision every couple can make for themselves based on their own hashkafa. Great.

Not so much with the Uman crowd! From the ones I know the husband decides and the women have to agree whether it's shana rishona, due date or kid sick in the hospital. Well, they don't force it per se, but they guilt the wives enough so they feel like it's no biggie to go into labor or handle kid in the hospital alone. After all, it makes husbands year and who are they to ruin that?
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#40 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 05:31 PM


Here's a thought: I'm not always willing to care for my kid every second of every day that I'm not at work. Nor am I always willing to care for her when my husband is in the mood of going out with the boys to chill or going to a wedding. But I do it. And what kind of a man would he be if he wouldn't reciprocate?

A typical frummy man??? :pardon:
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