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Targeting "heimish" shabbos meals


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#1 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:22 AM

I'm a big fan of community health nursing, and while I'm not quite entering that area of nursing right now, I did have an idea that would target the community I live in now.

The heimish community around me is very insistent and in love with their traditional Shabbos meals, all of which consists of unhealthy, carbohydrate-fat friendly foods. And as is very well known, the high obesity and diabetes rates in frum and heimish communities are sky high - and a well known NYU bariatric physician always blames the jews' "Shabbos."

AFAIK, this is what the common brooklyn person has at his friday night meal: (it's definitely on target with a chassidish crowd, but even my modern-but-heimish, Vein-shul type friends follow the list pretty closely.)

Challah (1-2 slices)
Dips (mayo-based, assume 1-2 Tbs)
Fish (gefilte/salmon/carp)
Soup (with matzah ball/noodle)
Meat/chicken (lets assume small portion)
Kugels (potato, lukshen, yerushalmi)
Other sides (tzimmes, farfel)
Dessert (cake or ice cream)

Shabbos day meal:


Challah (1-2 slices)
Dips (mayo-based, assume 1-2 Tbs)
Fish (gefilte/salmon/carp)
Eggs
Chopped liver
Gala/p'tcha/aspic (whatever you call it)
Deli meats
Cholent
Dessert

Now this is what is commonly cooked. There are, of course, variations. But every single meal that I have eaten out, at family or friends, or simchas, the above is the meal. INFREQUENTLY is there a green vegetable on that list.

Now this list does not address the H.com community. H-ers are not heimish by definition, and tend to break the mold as well. So I know that YOU don't necessarily follow the traditions so rigidly.

So, my idea is to put aside one entire Friday/Shabbos meal for one person, blend and freeze it, and have it analyzed by a lab. I googled it and it's more expensive than I thought, so I'm sitting on the idea.

But I do believe that change begins with awareness, and if I supposedly receive a nutrition label back from the lab with something like astronomical calorie counts, plus carb and fat grams, I can only assume that it would shock and surprise the people in my community who just don't think about. I was thinking about publicizing it in the heimish papers and magazines (hello mishpacha/binah/ami).

Compare it to the person who's eating ice cream out of a container til she notices that it's 50 calories per tablespoon... chances are, she'll put it down faster.

Any ideas? Pointless?
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#2 Xi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:31 AM

Only two slices of challah???

But I like the idea.
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#3 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:31 AM

Only two slices of challah???


I SAID there are variations! :rolleyes:
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#4 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:32 AM

I'm a big fan of community health nursing, and while I'm not quite entering that area of nursing right now, I did have an idea that would target the community I live in now.

The heimish community around me is very insistent and in love with their traditional Shabbos meals, all of which consists of unhealthy, carbohydrate-fat friendly foods. And as is very well known, the high obesity and diabetes rates in frum and heimish communities are sky high - and a well known NYU bariatric physician always blames the jews' "Shabbos."

AFAIK, this is what the common brooklyn person has at his friday night meal: (it's definitely on target with a chassidish crowd, but even my modern-but-heimish, Vein-shul type friends follow the list pretty closely.)

Challah (1-2 slices)
Dips (mayo-based, assume 1-2 Tbs)
Fish (gefilte/salmon/carp)
Soup (with matzah ball/noodle)
Meat/chicken (lets assume small portion)
Kugels (potato, lukshen, yerushalmi)
Other sides (tzimmes, farfel)
Dessert (cake or ice cream)

Shabbos day meal:


Challah (1-2 slices)
Dips (mayo-based, assume 1-2 Tbs)
Fish (gefilte/salmon/carp)
Eggs
Chopped liver
Gala/p'tcha/aspic (whatever you call it)
Deli meats
Cholent
Dessert

Now this is what is commonly cooked. There are, of course, variations. But every single meal that I have eaten out, at family or friends, or simchas, the above is the meal. INFREQUENTLY is there a green vegetable on that list.

Now this list does not address the H.com community. H-ers are not heimish by definition, and tend to break the mold as well. So I know that YOU don't necessarily follow the traditions so rigidly.

So, my idea is to put aside one entire Friday/Shabbos meal for one person, blend and freeze it, and have it analyzed by a lab. I googled it and it's more expensive than I thought, so I'm sitting on the idea.

But I do believe that change begins with awareness, and if I supposedly receive a nutrition label back from the lab with something like astronomical calorie counts, plus carb and fat grams, I can only assume that it would shock and surprise the people in my community who just don't think about. I was thinking about publicizing it in the heimish papers and magazines (hello mishpacha/binah/ami).

Compare it to the person who's eating ice cream out of a container til she notices that it's 50 calories per tablespoon... chances are, she'll put it down faster.

Any ideas? Pointless?

I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is. I think that it is important to be aware of this, but I think that cutting it out would be extreme. Part of Shabbos is having an elaborate seudah, and there's no reason to make everyone suffer because some people are not aware of the effects.

IME, it seems like people who are thin instinctively eat until they are full and then they stop. People who are, um, not thin, such as myself, eat until they have tried everything, and possibly until all the food is gone. The ultimate solution is for people to change the way they look at the seudah, not change the seudah itself.
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#5 starwolf

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:34 AM

Well, I don't know if it's pointless. It might help raise the alarm that this is an unhealthy diet--putting fat and carb numbers on the meals.

Of you could just figure out a way to publicize the fact that if one looks at our cardiovascular system as a network of highways, eating such a meal is like putting cinder blocks, and large oil slicks in the middle of the road.......

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#6 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:35 AM

I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is. I think that it is important to be aware of this, but I think that cutting it out would be extreme. Part of Shabbos is having an elaborate seudah, and there's no reason to make everyone suffer because some people are not aware of the effects.

IME, it seems like people who are thin instinctively eat until they are full and then they stop. People who are, um, not thin, such as myself, eat until they have tried everything, and possibly until all the food is gone. The ultimate solution is for people to change the way they look at the seudah, not change the seudah itself.


So my husband questioned my goal too (he thinks its a great idea that will not work at all).

A. awareness. Just KNOW how bad the food and amounts are for you.
B. take out ONE unhealthy side and replace it with ONE vegetable dish
C. Portion control

I eat like you do. I taste a little bit of everything. The only thing that prevented me from gaining a pound on shabbos was eating hard cheese in the morning, and not being able to eat at the meal, other than the fish. It worked like a charm, and I lost a pound a week just from shabbos alone. That's obviously very extreme, but with my eating habits, it's the only thing that prevented me from noshing on everything.
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#7 Shaina

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:37 AM

I think sending that gluttonous mush to a lab is a great idea. Yikes.

And of course using those magazines would be a great starting point. You'd probably need to supplement that article with loads of healthy recipes with nice pictures. :)

But I agree with the others that cutting out the entire traditional menu is never going to happen. However, giving examples of what such a meal would look like if one exercised self-control and ate normal portions might be a good idea.
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#8 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:41 AM

I think sending that gluttonous mush to a lab is a great idea. Yikes.

And of course using those magazines would be a great starting point. You'd probably need to supplement that article with loads of healthy recipes with nice pictures. :)

But I agree with the others that cutting out the entire traditional menu is never going to happen. However, giving examples of what such a meal would look like if one exercised self-control and ate normal portions might be a good idea.


I agree, I'm not trying to cut out the menu! I can't attack tradition. Even my own husband is VERY insistent on lots of the above foods, it's his shabbos comfort and he loves it.

But I think everyone can deal with some tweaking or eliminating. Giving a sample healthier menu is a great idea, thanks!

And starwolf - I like the idea of including medical info (possibly also diagrams of arteries before and after plaque formation) for effect.

I'm also thinking of comparing the shabbos meal to what it really includes, such as:

One full friday night meal for 1 is equal to:

3 regular weekday dinners
4 chocolate bars
1 large tub of full-fat ice cream
an entire loaf of bread with butter

I'm surely off the mark, but once I have the results, I can play around with it. I figure this: the shabbos meal is so NORMAL to the community, and I really have to show them how ABNORMAL it is to eat a meal like that twice a week.
"Belle has the right of it" - Shemmy

"i have come to believe that belle is closer to the truth" - Snag

"Belle is, of course, right." - Razie

#9 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:45 AM

So my husband questioned my goal too (he thinks its a great idea that will not work at all).

A. awareness. Just KNOW how bad the food and amounts are for you.
B. take out ONE unhealthy side and replace it with ONE vegetable dish
C. Portion control

I eat like you do. I taste a little bit of everything. The only thing that prevented me from gaining a pound on shabbos was eating hard cheese in the morning, and not being able to eat at the meal, other than the fish. It worked like a charm, and I lost a pound a week just from shabbos alone. That's obviously very extreme, but with my eating habits, it's the only thing that prevented me from noshing on everything.

I think that awareness is a good goal, but it's important to delineate clearly what is awareness, and what is being a grinch. If someone has the money to buy ads in the frum newspapers with a picture of a classic shabbos meal and a calorie/fat assessment, that sounds like a good idea. But the inevitable result is going to be "Make a zucchini kugel for all the older single girls" and then I'm going to have to choke a ####.
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#10 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:49 AM

I think that awareness is a good goal, but it's important to delineate clearly what is awareness, and what is being a grinch. If someone has the money to buy ads in the frum newspapers with a picture of a classic shabbos meal and a calorie/fat assessment, that sounds like a good idea.


I'm certainly not buying ads, but that IS a good idea, and I wonder if I can rope in other places to do it with/for me. Pomegranate has lots of incredible ads. I wonder if I can work with them. Instead of picturing their take out section, they can target their produce aisles.
"Belle has the right of it" - Shemmy

"i have come to believe that belle is closer to the truth" - Snag

"Belle is, of course, right." - Razie

#11 Pinchas

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:05 AM

I once crunched the numbers and determined that I need to run for 2 hours, every motzie shabbos (that's over 13 miles) to burn the (excess) calories from Shabbos. Which I did start doing.

Also you are forgetting about the kiddush in shul (with kugel, chulent and kishkah) and the Shalishudis.

There was I time, I remember when all my mother served for Shabbos lunch was a bowl of chulent. And calorie-wise I was thinking it might be a good idea to go back to that...

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#12 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:08 AM

I'm certainly not buying ads, but that IS a good idea, and I wonder if I can rope in other places to do it with/for me. Pomegranate has lots of incredible ads. I wonder if I can work with them. Instead of picturing their take out section, they can target their produce aisles.



Maybe it would make more sense for the "kosher gyms" to focus on. Imagine an ad with a shabbos table and text that reads something like "Challah, gefilte fish, matzo ball soup, chicken, ribs, potato kugel, deli roll, and chocolate cake totals 3100 calories. Choose two or three of them, add a salad, and go to the Heimishe Gym before melava malka."
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#13 Pinchas

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:10 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot the melava malka!

And you don't have to send anything to any labs.... calorie values for all these foods are already known... check out sites like
http://caloriecount.about.com/
or
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/

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For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#14 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:11 AM

Also you are forgetting about the kiddush in shul (with kugel, chulent and kishkah) and the Shalishudis.


My husband said that the kiddush thing is a big problem. At home it may be easier to pick and choose and have healthier choices, at a kiddush you don't have the choices, plus it's a social gathering, so you're eating without thinking.

Maybe it would make more sense for the "kosher gyms" to focus on. Imagine an ad with a shabbos table and text that reads something like "Challah, gefilte fish, matzo ball soup, chicken, ribs, potato kugel, deli roll, and chocolate cake totals 3100 calories. Choose two or three of them, add a salad, and go to the Heimishe Gym before melava malka."


You sound like you're joking, but that kind of ad actually sounds good.
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"i have come to believe that belle is closer to the truth" - Snag

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#15 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:15 AM

My husband said that the kiddush thing is a big problem. At home it may be easier to pick and choose and have healthier choices, at a kiddush you don't have the choices, plus it's a social gathering, so you're eating without thinking.



You sound like you're joking, but that kind of ad actually sounds good.

I wasn't joking at all. Things are changing, Belle.
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#16 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:22 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot the melava malka!

And you don't have to send anything to any labs.... calorie values for all these foods are already known... check out sites like
http://caloriecount.about.com/
or
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/


and I forgot kishka!!! how could I forget kishka?

I thought of computing the calories myself, I'll try but I want them to be on target. Saying "analyzed by a scientific lab with ghastly results for our cardiovascular and GI systems" sounds much better :p

I wasn't joking at all. Things are changing, Belle.


thank god.
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"i have come to believe that belle is closer to the truth" - Snag

"Belle is, of course, right." - Razie

#17 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:28 AM

and I forgot kishka!!! how could I forget kishka?





thank god.

Way to ruin the good will.
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#18 Pinchas

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:32 AM

My husband said that the kiddush thing is a big problem. At home it may be easier to pick and choose and have healthier choices, at a kiddush you don't have the choices, plus it's a social gathering, so you're eating without thinking.


But I'm saying it makes the problem worse because people already hit their daily allowance even before they sit down at the table for lunch to start with... going back to my mom... I remember times when if there was a kiddush at shul we would just literally wash, eat challah and bench...

and I forgot kishka!!! how could I forget kishka?


Possible the best question even asked on this site! EVER!

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#19 U Tarzan me Jane

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:40 AM

Challah (1-2 slices)
Dips (mayo-based, assume 1-2 Tbs)
Fish (gefilte/salmon/carp)
Soup (with matzah ball/noodle)
Meat/chicken (lets assume small portion)
Kugels (potato, lukshen, yerushalmi)
Other sides (tzimmes, farfel)
Dessert (cake or ice cream)

Shabbos day meal:


Challah (1-2 slices)
Dips (mayo-based, assume 1-2 Tbs)
Fish (gefilte/salmon/carp)
Eggs
Chopped liver
Gala/p'tcha/aspic (whatever you call it)
Deli meats
Cholent
Dessert


I do not know anyone whose meal includes this amount of stuff. I grew up in a very heimish /chassidish traditional shabbat meal family. I cannot think of a single time, that we had a meal with that much food. No one ate much past the soup , they were already stuffed. 3 kugels would have gone straight to the trash with barely 3 bites out of them.

Who eats P'tcha? feh. I do not know a single person who doesn't find it revolting(I want to vomit just thinking about it). You must travel in a very different crowd then I do.
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#20 Bluelaptop

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:44 AM

.
Sleeping Beauty came at 4
Her eyes were filled with tears.
"Oh my," she said, "I overslept
About a hundred years."

(Mr. Cuckoo's Clock Shop)




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