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Targeting "heimish" shabbos meals


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#21 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:45 AM

Any ideas? Pointless?

Entirely pointless. I completely disagree that the "obesity crisis" is caused by Shabbos overeating. I gained some weight over Sukkos and within a few weeks after it was over the weight disappeared because I went back to my usual pattern of eating. No matter how much you're eating on Shabbos, that's two meals out of 21 per week; It's the other 19 meals that are causing people to gain weight; Weight Watchers even builds in a "free day" of eating so long as you're saving your points the rest of the week.

What would work better is education. Classes in school for kids, and classes in shuls and community centers for adults. But as everyone knows, it is extremely difficult for most adults to successfully change their eating habits and keep off weight for any significant amount of time.

#22 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:46 AM

Way to ruin the good will.


My response was just as wry as yours was.

But I'm saying it makes the problem worse because people already hit their daily allowance even before they sit down at the table for lunch to start with... going back to my mom... I remember times when if there was a kiddush at shul we would just literally wash, eat challah and bench...


Right, it's a compounded problem.
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#23 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:48 AM

Entirely pointless. I completely disagree that the "obesity crisis" is caused by Shabbos overeating. I gained some weight over Sukkos and within a few weeks after it was over the weight disappeared because I went back to my usual pattern of eating. No matter how much you're eating on Shabbos, that's two meals out of 21 per week; It's the other 19 meals that are causing people to gain weight; Weight Watchers even builds in a "free day" of eating so long as you're saving your points the rest of the week.

What would work better is education. Classes in school for kids, and classes in shuls and community centers for adults. But as everyone knows, it is extremely difficult for most adults to successfully change their eating habits and keep off weight for any significant amount of time.

This post is important because it shows that there are only two options - either all obesity is caused only by shabbos meals and has no other factors, or else no obesity is caused at all, to any degree, by shabbos meals. Now that the argument has been properly framed, we can continue.
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#24 Shoshi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:49 AM

Belle, I am totally with you.

I don't know that the Jewish community has higher rates of obesity than the general American population, but the diet doesn't help.
Also, the fact that every holiday must be celebrated with several "meals."
Why celebrate everything with eating?
Why not celebrate with dancing, or going for a walk as a family, or something else?

I am amazed how many people don't eat green vegetables daily, or even weekly? In actuality, ideally they should be eated with every meal. (Yes that includes breakfast).

I had a roommate once who was a vegetarian and while living in Jerusalem together, we used to host Shabbat meals. People were always amazed how "healthy" our meals were, because there were lots of vegetables: vegetable soup, always a big salad, a vegetarian main dish like a casserole, sometimes a vegetable side dish as well.

However, on occasion someone would be "shocked" that we were not serving meat (even though we were a vegetarian house, of course we were not going to serve meat). As if it was a big problem for them not to eat meat or chicken for ONE Shabbat meal! (they are free to eat meat at the following meal if they like).

#25 TheDuncePolice

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:50 AM

.
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#26 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:51 AM

I'm very vocal against 'brown food' but I think there is a lot more awareness than we think. They know it's unhealthy and fattening but 'it's what is done' and it's 'traditional' and apparently written down in some invisible shulchan aruch. To the point that they'll discuss using red potatoes with the peel instead of regular peeled russets for potato salad but it wouldn't occur to them to eliminate or cut down on the mayo or forget about this 'salad' altogether.
Sorry, I don't mean to throw a damper on your ideas. It's just that it's a major pet peeve of mine. Even in my community where many many people eat well we still have those who refuse to change a thing.


No, you're right. My hope is that even thought we "know" it's not good for us, we're not thrown the actual information (calories, fat grams, tripled portion sizes, etc), so it's a lot easier to just pretend there's nothing unhealthy about it. I feel like dry facts and numbers may help a bit.

Entirely pointless. I completely disagree that the "obesity crisis" is caused by Shabbos overeating. I gained some weight over Sukkos and within a few weeks after it was over the weight disappeared because I went back to my usual pattern of eating. No matter how much you're eating on Shabbos, that's two meals out of 21 per week; It's the other 19 meals that are causing people to gain weight; Weight Watchers even builds in a "free day" of eating so long as you're saving your points the rest of the week.


For a period of time, I avoided eating the Shabbos meals aside from a piece of fish and salad. Those weeks, I lost an extra pound. Whenever I ate regular shabbos meals, I either gained a pound or maintained my weight.

I do believe that Shabbos has a huge impact on our health.

What would work better is education. Classes in school for kids, and classes in shuls and community centers for adults. But as everyone knows, it is extremely difficult for most adults to successfully change their eating habits and keep off weight for any significant amount of time.


Of course this is the ultimate idea, but it'll never work at all. I can hardly picture the chassidish mother or father going out to a nutrition lecture. And some schools do have nutrition classes; I did. But it was in high school, and by the time we graduated, married and set up our own homes, we'd forgotten it all.
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#27 TheDuncePolice

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:51 AM

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#28 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:54 AM

Belle, I am totally with you.

I don't know that the Jewish community has higher rates of obesity than the general American population, but the diet doesn't help.
Also, the fact that every holiday must be celebrated with several "meals."
Why celebrate everything with eating?
Why not celebrate with dancing, or going for a walk as a family, or something else?


I'm not looking to revolutionize Judaism. All holidays are celebrated with meals. It's just that Judaism has more holidays, and thus more meals. If Christmas lasted a week, they'd have plenty more parties and dinners.

While this is the general menu, I think those that have ALL of the above on their menu are somewhat few and far between. There are also many ways to 'healthify' the shabbos meal, which I'm sure you know.


Of course. Lots of people only have some of the listed foods. But I have never seen a meal with just challah, fish, salad, and fruit for dessert. While that's not my goal because it's not realistic, most foods ARE high carb, high fat, even if they have smaller menus or smaller portions.

What's brown food?


Jewish food. Kishka, kugel, farfel, meat, chicken, potatoes.

No vegetable medley.
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#29 TheDuncePolice

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:56 AM

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#30 Pinchas

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:56 AM

No vegetable medley.


Stuffed cabbage is a vegetable...

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#31 Belle

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:57 AM

/raises hand/

We have challah (which I don't always eat, and/or have spelt), fish, salad and then some chicken soup.


I specifically said that I don't include H.commers in my target audience.
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#32 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:57 AM

For a period of time, I avoided eating the Shabbos meals aside from a piece of fish and salad. Those weeks, I lost an extra pound.

So first off, you were not keeping the mitzvah of challah, and second you were essentially starving yourself.

Whenever I ate regular shabbos meals, I either gained a pound or maintained my weight.

Maintaining is just fine so long as your start weight is within the range of normal.

Of course this is the ultimate idea, but it'll never work at all. I can hardly picture the chassidish mother or father going out to a nutrition lecture. And some schools do have nutrition classes; I did. But it was in high school, and by the time we graduated, married and set up our own homes, we'd forgotten it all.

So remind me what your idea is instead? Go to each individual's house and analyze their food for them? And then teach them to eat properly and monitor them from time to time? So we're talking about an army of nurses and nutritionists? Who is paying for this? Who's remotely to going to even be interested considering that anybody who is obese and under a doctor's care probably has been told to see a nutritionist already?

#33 Shoshi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:59 AM

I don't see what's wrong with revolutionizing the obsession with eating in Judaism.

If we have a 3 day chag, why do there have to be 6 official "meals"?
Why not 3 meals?
People can "grab a salad for lunch" for those other meals.

#34 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:01 AM

I don't see what's wrong with revolutionizing the obsession with eating in Judaism.

If we have a 3 day chag, why do there have to be 6 official "meals"?
Why not 3 meals?
People can "grab a salad for lunch" for those other meals.

Because halacha says that you have to wash and make kiddush twice a day. That means that barring extraordinary health circumstances, you must eat a kezayit of bread twice a day.

As for salad, that's great for a woman who's living on a 1500 calories a day diet, not so great for a man who needs more like 2000 calories.

#35 Xi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:05 AM

People can "grab a salad for lunch" for those other meals.

Grabbing anything for lunch is not a holiday meal.

But serving salad before the cholent so people fill up on that and eat less 'brown food' keeps the seudah atmosphere and food while making things more healthy.
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#36 starwolf

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:07 AM

Who eats P'tcha? feh. I do not know a single person who doesn't find it revolting(I want to vomit just thinking about it).


Hell, that's the only healthy thing on that menu...and the exact reason that it's healthy. Put that stuff on the table and I guaranfrickingtee that everyone will eat less.

Because halacha says that you have to wash and make kiddush twice a day. That means that barring extraordinary health circumstances, you must eat a kezayit of bread twice a day.


Big difference between a kazayit and a few slices of challah.

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#37 Shoshi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:09 AM

Grabbing anything for lunch is not a holiday meal.

But serving salad before the cholent so people fill up on that and eat less 'brown food' keeps the seudah atmosphere and food while making things more healthy.


No one needs TWO holiday meals per day. You can have a holiday meal in the evening, why do you ALSO need one at lunch?
What other culture does this?
Christians have "Christmas dinner". They don't have "Christmas lunch" and "Christmas dinner".

Because halacha says that you have to wash and make kiddush twice a day. That means that barring extraordinary health circumstances, you must eat a kezayit of bread twice a day.

As for salad, that's great for a woman who's living on a 1500 calories a day diet, not so great for a man who needs more like 2000 calories.


"Grab a salad" or "grab a sandwich". Whatever. What I mean is that it can be a simple meal for lunch if one is going to have an elaborate communal meal for dinner.

#38 Pinchas

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:09 AM

Because halacha says that you have to wash and make kiddush twice a day. That means that barring extraordinary health circumstances, you must eat a kezayit of bread twice a day.

As for salad, that's great for a woman who's living on a 1500 calories a day diet, not so great for a man who needs more like 2000 calories.


A typical Tamani Friday night meal consists of:

Kiddush
Pita bread (Actually lafa bread)
Chicken Soup

A typical Tamani Shabbos Lunch consists of:

Kiddush
Pita bread (Actually lafa bread)
A meat/bean stew (without potatoes.)

The Rambam was a doctor.

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#39 Xi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:10 AM

No one needs TWO holiday meals per day. You can have a holiday meal in the evening, why do you ALSO need one at lunch?
What other culture does this?
Christians have "Christmas dinner". They don't have "Christmas lunch" and "Christmas dinner".


People bond and celebrate over food. And they have to eat anyway. What's the big deal about eating together, if the food isn't absolute crud?

Is it better when people have a big Thanksgiving dinner with family, but grab a holiday lunch from McDonald's?
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#40 Shoshi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:11 AM

Because halacha says that you have to wash and make kiddush twice a day. That means that barring extraordinary health circumstances, you must eat a kezayit of bread twice a day.

As for salad, that's great for a woman who's living on a 1500 calories a day diet, not so great for a man who needs more like 2000 calories.


Many Ashkenazi Jews have Type 2 diabetes in their family.
In other words, as we get older (type 2 usually strikes in middle age) we are more likely to develop this.
Many of us may be "pre-diabetic" and not even realize it. (Symptoms are subtle - some fatigue, insulin resistance-difficulty losing weight, concentration of weight around the middle, etc.)
For a pre-diabetic, bread should really be avoided. Especially white bread (i.e., challah). Especially on a weekly, daily, or (heaven forbid) twice daily basis.




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