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Targeting "heimish" shabbos meals


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#61 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:03 PM

It'll burn off the calories from the Shabbos... and they'll stick to it if there are leagues...

And then after a good couple of hours of ball playing, they need to go out and have something to eat.
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I think what many of y'all are forgetting is that for many people it's not just about mindless overeating, it's about emotional eating. And in the frum community the emotional issues are different and a bit more complex than in the secular world. The whole "ess ess mein kind" is part of the Jewish mentality, for starters. A Jewish mother's worth is very much bound up in her ability to cook for her family, and a child is encouraged to eat regardless of whether they want to or not, so they are taught at a very young age that food equals love, that eating isn't just about satisfying one's growling stomach. And that's just one aspect.

#62 TheDuncePolice

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:07 PM

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#63 Xi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:19 PM

And then after a good couple of hours of ball playing, they need to go out and have something to eat.

OK, but they still get a lower net calorie count and some exercise thrown in as well.
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#64 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:24 PM

I'm not sure why you think that the emotional issues are more complex than in the secular world.

Because there are stronger social mores and expectations in the frum community. I think in the secular community, while emotional eating is definitely a problem, I think mindless overeating is the bigger problem (for example, people sit in front of the TV and eat a whole box of cookies without thinking about it, or have McDonalds two or three times a week). In the frum community, I'd argue that it's the opposite. That while on Shabbos there's quite a bit over mindless overeating, but overall, it stems from an emotional issue, as I mentioned above (and again, that's only one aspect of, but it's very deeply ingrained).

OK, but they still get a lower net calorie count and some exercise thrown in as well.

Good luck with getting more than a tiny fraction of the community to stick with it.

#65 Shoshi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:48 PM

If I didn't think that you and Belle were women before, you've certainly amply demonstrated it now. Love how you cannot acknowledge that men (particularly) don't want to eat like rabbits or birds and have larger caloric needs than women.


That's cool.
As I said before, men (or women for that matter) can "grab a sandwich" instead of a salad.
Or add a piece of bread to the fish with salad meal.
But I should add that men with diabetes in their families or with pre-diabetes should probably skip the bread, just like women.

#66 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:58 PM

That's cool.
As I said before, men (or women for that matter) can "grab a sandwich" instead of a salad.
Or add a piece of bread to the fish with salad meal.
But I should add that men with diabetes in their families or with pre-diabetes should probably skip the bread, just like women.

You're not getting that most men do not want to grab a sandwich on Shabbos. If you want to succeed in getting a person to change his eating habits, you have to understand where he's coming from, and you and Belle clearly don't get it. Particularly in the heimish community there is little to no incentive for a man to take care of his appearance. And don't say "health issues" because most people get caught up in the weight issue way before they believe that diabetes or heart disease will ever happen to them. But even actual health issues are often not enough to get people to change their ways. People would rather pop a pill than stop eating mounds of potato kugel.

#67 lyric

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:27 PM

I know Belle isn't targeting h.com members but honestly, no one I know eats like her original list. Everyone has at least a healthy green salad and a vegetable kugel as an option. And fruit salad or compote is becoming as popular as icecream, or at least offered as well as.

But, besides the meals, Belle, there is the cake and tea syndrome. Now that I am on what amounts to a starvation diet for a few weeks (for reasons only the AC members are privvy to..) of maximum 1000 calories and if possible fewer, I can see how much food is eaten on a normal Shabbos. And I would never only have one or two slices of challah either, nor would anyone I know. Have lunch, (or dinner the night before) go out for a "bissel shpatzieren" go to sholom zochors, come back, have a tea and cake or chocolate, or nuts. It never ends.

And I happen to agree with Sav about the exercise. The type of fatty who won't diet, won't exercise either.
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#68 Short

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:27 PM

Of course this is the ultimate idea, but it'll never work at all. I can hardly picture the chassidish mother or father going out to a nutrition lecture.

You have never heard of Rabbi Meisels? He's the chassidishe health guru. He runs a weekly (I think) lecture-talk on a hotline that has a huge listening audience, and he writes weekly columns in the heimish newspapers. He's of course saying all the same things you are, and there are a lot of people who have made changes in their lifestyles. Health food stores are booming in heimishe neighborhoods, and even regular supermarkets are now stocking a lot of food items they didn't used to.

But old habits die hard, and even when people change the way they eat, there is always lots of pressure 'zich ahertzishtelen' for guests or on Yom Tov and that's when meals get even more elaborate and unhealthy.

I do think there is a shift towards healthier eating. Many heimishe people now make whole-wheat or part-whole-wheat challah. They try to eat less of it. Healthier fish. Less carb-y food like farfel and kugel. But there are still "killers", like kiddushim and other catered affairs, and foods that should be shipped to malnourished children in Africa, like sauteed liver.

If you analyze the seudah, not as a mush of everything mushed together but as individual courses, and don't reckon that everyone eats everything, then it's not so bad. Some challah, fish/eggs/chicken, some veggies and fruit, it's a pretty balanced, even if somewhat oversized meal. For people who do eat everything, the Shabbos seudah is probably just a drop in the bucket of their regular unhealthy weekday eating. Some people need to modify their recipes - those who think a cholent needs flanken and several tablespoons of oil, those who think kugels need to be practically deep fried, people whose chicken dish is unhealthy, excessively sweet poached fish, or rich desserts instead of simple cooked or raw fruit.

I would try to put more of an emphasis on exercise.

:stupid:

(Lack of) exercise is probably the bigger culprit in the high obesity rates in the heimish community.
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#69 Sweet

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:37 PM

You're not getting that most men do not want to grab a sandwich on Shabbos. If you want to succeed in getting a person to change his eating habits, you have to understand where he's coming from, and you and Belle clearly don't get it. Particularly in the heimish community there is little to no incentive for a man to take care of his appearance. And don't say "health issues" because most people get caught up in the weight issue way before they believe that diabetes or heart disease will ever happen to them. But even actual health issues are often not enough to get people to change their ways. People would rather pop a pill than stop eating mounds of potato kugel.

That is quite a generalization. Men have the same incentive to take care of their appearance that women do, especially after they get married. Wait, did someone mention mounds of potato kugel? Where?
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#70 Shoshi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:01 PM

You're not getting that most men do not want to grab a sandwich on Shabbos. If you want to succeed in getting a person to change his eating habits, you have to understand where he's coming from, and you and Belle clearly don't get it. Particularly in the heimish community there is little to no incentive for a man to take care of his appearance. And don't say "health issues" because most people get caught up in the weight issue way before they believe that diabetes or heart disease will ever happen to them. But even actual health issues are often not enough to get people to change their ways. People would rather pop a pill than stop eating mounds of potato kugel.


Wow, is this really true?
Is there really no incentive in the "hemish" (does this mean yeshivish?) community for a man to take care of his appearance?

#71 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:07 PM

Wow, is this really true?
Is there really no incentive in the "hemish" (does this mean yeshivish?) community for a man to take care of his appearance?

Of course there's little to no incentive. From a young age, boys are encouraged to sit and learn, and discouraged from doing anything else, particularly working out or playing sports. They wear black, and as we know, black is slimming and hides a multitude of sins. And finally, the shidduch system is stacked in favor boys, so there isn't the same pressure on men to be thin the way there is for women to be thin.

#72 Short

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:15 PM

Of course there's little to no incentive. From a young age, boys are encouraged to sit and learn, and discouraged from doing anything else, particularly working out or playing sports. They wear black, and as we know, black is slimming and hides a multitude of sins. And finally, the shidduch system is stacked in favor boys, so there isn't the same pressure on men to be thin the way there is for women to be thin.

Untrue. Obesity in shidduch-age boys is a strong point against them. Obviously, the disparity in what's seen as "fat" for girls and "fat" for boys is not the same. But obesity is not seen as a point in favor. Far from it.

The real problem begins several years later. Most boys are in decent shape when they get married - they do not drive, so they get a reasonable amount of exercise biking and walking, just to get around. Young men are known to be able to consume astonishing amounts of food and metabolize it while they are still growing and developing, which is to 18-20 years of age. But when these young men have been married for several years, drive or ride everywhere, sit at a desk most of the day, and eat a "hemishe" diet, is when the pounds start piling up, and voila! a couple of years down the road he's 50 lbs. heavier than the day he got married.
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#73 lyric

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:25 PM

Untrue. Obesity in shidduch-age boys is a strong point against them. Obviously, the disparity in what's seen as "fat" for girls and "fat" for boys is not the same. But obesity is not seen as a point in favor. Far from it.

The real problem begins several years later. Most boys are in decent shape when they get married - they do not drive, so they get a reasonable amount of exercise biking and walking, just to get around. Young men are known to be able to consume astonishing amounts of food and metabolize it while they are still growing and developing, which is to 18-20 years of age. But when these young men have been married for several years, drive or ride everywhere, sit at a desk most of the day, and eat a "hemishe" diet, is when the pounds start piling up, and voila! a couple of years down the road he's 50 lbs. heavier than the day he got married.


You describe hubby exactly, except he was gaunt when he got married, so he's not hugely overweight now, just about 15lbs or so. Now he's type 2 diabetic and I'm controlling it by diet alone so far which is quite an achievement. I try and make him exercise. At least he'll walk to shul (5 minutes each way 3 times a day...no scratch that, mincha is just across the road from his office, so that's 5 mns each way twice a day), he'll walk very occasionally late at night, and on Shabbos, to his credit, he gives shiurim all over the place so does a fair amount of walking. But he has no regular exercise regime. However he eats healthily because that's what I give him, but he'll go straight from supper to his stash of sugar free chocolate and cookies.
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#74 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:26 PM

Untrue.

True, and you proved it:

Obviously, the disparity in what's seen as "fat" for girls and "fat" for boys is not the same.


I'm not saying a man can be a mountain and not have it count against him, but it's just not the same as for a girl. The incentive isn't the same.

#75 Short

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:42 PM

True, and you proved it:

I'm not saying a man can be a mountain and not have it count against him, but it's just not the same as for a girl. The incentive isn't the same.

"The same" is the opposite from "no incentive", given the extreme pressure women are under.
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#76 Savannah

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:05 PM

"The same" is the opposite from "no incentive", given the extreme pressure women are under.

Not sure what you're trying to say. Again: Obviously being a huge blob would be a strike against a boy, but not being a "size 2" (lehavdil) wouldn't be. So there's no incentive to be a "size 2" as opposed to a "size 6" or even a "size 10." They do not encourage the boys to diet or exercise; they encourage them to sit and learn. They also don't encourage them to dress well or even flatteringly. Taking care of one's appearance is very nearly considered beged isha.

#77 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:28 PM

Entirely pointless. I completely disagree that the "obesity crisis" is caused by Shabbos overeating. I gained some weight over Sukkos and within a few weeks after it was over the weight disappeared because I went back to my usual pattern of eating. No matter how much you're eating on Shabbos, that's two meals out of 21 per week; It's the other 19 meals that are causing people to gain weight; Weight Watchers even builds in a "free day" of eating so long as you're saving your points the rest of the week.

:stupid:

How many of the above people are eating healthy during the WEEK either? And have you ever seen what food is served in most yeshivas??? Shabbos might not be exactly conducive to weight loss, but I really don't think it is a significant part of the problem, or the place to start in making our diets more healthy. People will be MUCH more receptive to variation (within REASON) during the week than to touch their holy shabbos traditions...

A typical Tamani Friday night meal consists of:

Kiddush
Pita bread (Actually lafa bread)
Chicken Soup

A typical Tamani Shabbos Lunch consists of:

Kiddush
Pita bread (Actually lafa bread)
A meat/bean stew (without potatoes.)

The Rambam was a doctor.

You're forgetting all the Kubana, Jachnun, Lahoch etc....

And many Yemenites were thin because they HAD no food. And the same is true in Eastern Europe. Few people could AFFORD to be fat...

You don't "need" to bond communally once a day for 3 days either. But removing it is removing something more fundamental than gala on the menu.

And no, there isn't bound to be overeating if you do, if you space and serve things properly.

:stupid:

And let's remind everyone of all the Shabbos Zemiros. Barburim, Slav, Dagim, Lechem vyayin Tov, Basar V'dagim. Wine, sweet drinks etc...
No mention of Quinoa or Alfalfa...

And no that's not halacha, but it SAYS something, that THESE are the zemrios that were "canonized" some of them from as early as the middle ages. Eating well is an integral part of Shabbos and Yom Tov and always has been in Jewish tradition. We don't need to go overboard but at the same time we shouldn't ignore or downplay the significance of "Feasts" in Judaism...

No, I frequently don't keep the mitzvah of challah.

And no, a slice of fish and salad is a frequent meal for me, that is not "starving myself" by far. You could use a nutrition class yourself, m'dear.

OK so no offense, but you really can't expect "normal eaters" let alone fressers to take your message seriously. You have no frame of reference or common denominator.....

OK, but they still get a lower net calorie count and some exercise thrown in as well.

Also exercise in general increases metabolism, and reduces appetite, so there is surely a net gain...

And I agree with lyric, in most houses I've been to (and KR has been around the block), almost without exception, people serve some sort of veggies. Maybe carrots, beet salad, a regular lettuce salad, cole slaw, Israeli salad etc... It's not ALL meat and potatoes....
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#78 Bluelaptop

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:33 PM

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About a hundred years."

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#79 lyric

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:00 PM

Coleslaw is not a good example, being as it is mostly swamped with mayonnaise. But I always serve a healthy salad; I see no point whatever in serving a fattening salad. I have zero calorie dressings, or very low calorie dressings, and good fresh vegetables. My desserts always have a sugar free low calorie element to them. My most recent favourite, and has proved a huge hit, is simply to puree raw mango and pineapple and serve that as it is. You are meant to add passion fruit to the mix but I can't always find that.
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#80 Short

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:10 PM

Not sure what you're trying to say. Again: Obviously being a huge blob would be a strike against a boy, but not being a "size 2" (lehavdil) wouldn't be. So there's no incentive to be a "size 2" as opposed to a "size 6" or even a "size 10." They do not encourage the boys to diet or exercise; they encourage them to sit and learn. They also don't encourage them to dress well or even flatteringly. Taking care of one's appearance is very nearly considered beged isha.

There should be no incentive for boys to be a "size 2" or "size 6" or even a "10". Even for girls, some of these are unhealthy sizes. Even a fairly short girl is still a healthy size at a size 10, provided she gets enough exercise.

Boys who are fat, which means, FAT (unlike girls, who can be a healthy weight but are still encourage to become skinnier), are certainly encouraged to diet. I agree that they are not encouraged to dress well or flatteringly, but strongly disagree on everybody looking the other way at their weight. Obesity is not seen as a cosmetic issue anymore, and boys/men are strongly encouraged to diet if their weight exceeds a healthy, normal limit.
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