115 replies to this topic

[Belle]

How is that related to this thread? You can think I was wrong there all you like, but it doesn't mean I was wrong in this one, or that I started up with you.

It's related by the fact that you've been PMSing across h.com for enough time that a minor infraction here (your presumptuous post that everyone here disliked) pissed me off.

My observation is based on my observation of people, as I've been living on this planet.

you think you're right too often.

[Sweet]

ok - so chime in. Do YOU see people, in practice, showing the most respect for nurses, teachers, and soldiers (and SAHM's)? I don't see it, and in the places I don't see it, it's generally not just my peers. I see, in practice, people being disrespectful to teachers and nurses more often than not. Women and female-dominated fields in general. Maybe soldiers and firefighters in uniform tend to get more respect, but I still don't see them getting the same awe/respect as actors, CEOs, Judges, Astronauts, etc do. A nurse or a teacher walking into a restaurant is not going to get her (or his) tab covered. An astronaut will.

I don't see them getting respect over all other professions. Again, especially not women. I really am surprised if other people say "yeah - I see in practice that these fields get the most respect - more than all others."

I definitely respect soldiers more than I respect actors. I don't want to get into every example you gave, but I know lots of people who respect blue collar people who can fend for themselves over rich or intellectual nebbishes. I have absolutely zero respect for actors; except insofar as they do productive things. CEOs probably depends on what I know about them. I certainly didn't change my avatar when Steve Jobs died. Come to think of it, you were baffled back then that some people didn't think of him as the second coming. Maybe there's a trend afoot.
Also, it's not that nurses don't deserve lunch, it's that the type of people who give free lunches to those they admire are the ones who choose their idols poorly.

[Razie]

you think you're right too often.

I'm offering an opinion. Everyone has opinions based on their experience.
And when Snag asserted his A/B test of which he respected more, I believed him immediately, despite it countering my general observation.

[Razie]

Also, it's not that nurses don't deserve lunch, it's that the type of people who give free lunches to those they admire are the ones who choose their idols poorly.

nothing I said at any point was about what anyone deserved. At all. If anything I'm saying that female dominated professions don't get the respect they do deserve, in my experience. My point *IS* that in practice people aren't respecting these fields ... "choosing their idols poorly" as you say.

I am simply saying I don't see people showing the respect that is generally trumpeted. TV commercials praise teachers to the sky. Teachers are a praiseworthy profession - but how does that translate to real life? They don't in general get the respect they deserve. So I think that when society talks about how much respect teachers deserve, it's talking a good game, but not following through.

[Belle]

I'm offering an opinion.

so you said.

[Razie]

It's related by the fact that you've been PMSing across h.com for enough time that a minor infraction here (your presumptuous post that everyone here disliked) pissed me off.

Curiously - If you're dan l'kaf zchus people who treat their nurses rudely, why not me?

[Belle]

I am simply saying I don't see people showing the respect that is generally trumpeted. TV commercials praise teachers to the sky. Teachers are a praiseworthy profession - but how does that translate to real life? They don't in general get the respect they deserve. So I think that when society talks about how much respect teachers deserve, it's talking a good game, but not following through.

no, that's not what you said, but nice try. you didn't say "people keep naming nurses and teachers as highly respected, yet they don't end up being respected much." you said that people are naming professions they THINK they should name.

had you said that, I would have agreed with you. finding a profession noble doesn't mean that people will automatically treat you respectfully. i have never, ever, encountered a person who looked DOWN on me as a nurse, but I've been treated very poorly and impatiently by my patients and family members.

Curiously - If you're dan l'kaf zchus people who treat their nurses rudely, why not me?

because you're not dying of congestive heart failure or colon cancer.

also because I didn't actively see THEM being rude to others and speaking to others the way you did recently. if I'd know that they're in general rude people, my tolerance level decreases a certain amount.

[Razie]

no, that's not what you said, but nice try. you didn't say "people keep naming nurses and teachers as highly respected, yet they don't end up being respected much." you said that people are naming professions they THINK they should name.

had you said that, I would have agreed with you. finding a profession noble doesn't mean that people will automatically treat you respectfully. i have never, ever, encountered a person who looked DOWN on me as a nurse, but I've been treated very poorly and impatiently by my patients and family members.

But I think that that's largely the cause for the gap between what people say they respect and what they act on. "I say I respect teachers, but in practice I actually don't, but saying I respect teachers is my instinctual right answer because I know it's what I'm supposed to respect because it's respectable" etc.

[Belle]

But I think that that's largely the cause for the gap between what people say they respect and what they act on. "I say I respect teachers, but in practice I actually don't, but saying I respect teachers is my instinctual right answer because I know it's what I'm supposed to respect" etc.

it means that they respect what teachers do, and the fact that they're educating our youth, even if they fail to actually act on it.

[Sweet]

nothing I said at any point was about what anyone deserved. At all. If anything I'm saying that female dominated professions don't get the respect they do deserve, in my experience. My point *IS* that in practice people aren't respecting these fields ... "choosing their idols poorly" as you say.

I am simply saying I don't see people showing the respect that is generally trumpeted. TV commercials praise teachers to the sky. Teachers are a praiseworthy profession - but how does that translate to real life? They don't in general get the respect they deserve. So I think that when society talks about how much respect teachers deserve, it's talking a good game, but not following through.

I think that you're right that as part of the dumbing down of society and the pervasiveness and elongation of youth culture, it seems like people care more about money, fame, and prestige than they do about things that really matter. But as people grow, and as they grow older, they start to admire different things. Those things don't always, as they say in sports, show up in the boxscore.

[Razie]

because you're not dying of congestive heart failure or colon cancer.

also because I didn't actively see THEM being rude to others and speaking to others the way you did recently. if I'd know that they're in general rude people, my tolerance level decreases a certain amount.

But as you said, I've been a 36 hour rampage, and you don't necessarily know if something serious is going on. Intense general hostility over a day and half might be something, no? I mean, it doesn't really matter, I'm just curious since you've taken offense at behavior that wasn't directed at you and made it personal to you.

[Belle]

I think that you're right that as part of the dumbing down of society and the pervasiveness and elongation of youth culture, it seems like people care more about money, fame, and prestige than they do about things that really matter. But as people grow, and as they grow older, they start to admire different things. Those things don't always, as they say in sports, show up in the boxscore.

right. but that's PRECISELY why her post was so offensive. are we not intelligent enough people in this thread to acknowledge the actual noble professions?

[Razie]

it means that they respect what teachers do, and the fact that they're educating our youth, even if they fail to actually act on it.

Well that's all I meant. I think of "respect" as action - not just a thought. I find it hard to reconcile that you can "respect" someone but spit in his face. I wouldn't call that respect - the actions negate it regardless of what the brain says. So all I was observing is that stated respect and practiced respect are often different, and I think stated things tend to conform to expected societal values whereas action diverges.

[Belle]

But as you said, I've been a 36 hour rampage, and you don't necessarily know if something serious is going on. Intense general hostility over a day and half might be something, no?

it might, but I'd expect you not to take it out on others.

I mean, it doesn't really matter, I'm just curious since you've taken offense at behavior that wasn't directed at you and made it personal to you.

i take offense at anything that is uncalled for or disrespectful.

and yes, your post in this thread WAS personal to me, as I mentioned numerous times. I found it offensive that you'd think I was less-than-honest in my replies here, whether or not you singled me out.

[Razie]

right. but that's PRECISELY why her post was so offensive. are we not intelligent enough people in this thread to acknowledge the actual noble professions?

Again - I don't distinguish between acknowledgement and action when it comes to the concept of respect.

[Belle]

In fairness, one often has no idea what struggles others are going through. IME, almost all bad attitudes stem from a general unhappiness or stressor in one's life.

luckily for me, at work I know the diagnosis and am therefore able to muster up more pity for when I'm spoken to rudely.

[Razie]

and yes, your post in this thread WAS personal to me, as I mentioned numerous times. I found it offensive that you'd think I was less-than-honest in my replies here, whether or not you singled me out.

I thought we were in agreement that what people say they respect and how they act on it often diverges.

[Belle]

Again - I don't distinguish between acknowledgement and action when it comes to the concept of respect.

we're going in circles here. i truly don't care one way or the other. i found your post offensive and told you so. your explanations covered yourself nicely, but it wasn't what you initially said by FAR (even though you say it's the same concept). if you don't like being told that your post was offensive or presumptuous, work on not sounding as pompous as you often do. that is my suggestion.

and I will work on judging you favorably when you rampage across the site, knowing that you usually are well-mannered and not rude.

now I need to go to sleep.

Right. It's a lot easier to dismiss people's bad behavior when you're aware that they're in great pain or going through some personal tragedy/struggle. As Xi mentioned, it's often hard to see beyond the surface in our interactions with others.

that's why I said, "luckily for me." judging my patients favorably isn't a great attribute of mine. it comes with the territory. I'd be an ### if I was short tempered with my patient who as just diagnosed with lung cancer last week and was taking it out on me.