Jump to content


Photo

Cyrus ?= Dhul qarnayn

Cyrus islam quran Torah Gog and Magog

  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 emehri

emehri

    Newbie

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 01:01 PM

Hi there
There's a strange person mentioned in Qur'an as "Dhul-qarnayn", literally meaning "two-horned one" or "two-century living man".
It's more than 1000 years that scholar argue who he really is. The most famous and widely accepted theory is that he is in fact Alexander the Great. But in the last century a new theory was introduced stating that he is in fact Cyrus the great.
No one can help us more than Jewish brothers, since he is mentioned is Torah.

Please answer me, IT IS VERY VITAL FOR MUSLIMS :
1 - Does Cyrus have any relations with Gog and Magog ?
2 - Did he really built a wall ?
3 - Did he believe in the Judgement day ?
4 - Is there any relations between Torah and ancient Persian statues?
5 - Is there any relations between Cyrus and the ram which Daniel dreamed ?
6 - Is this story fundamentally true ?!

Thank so much

#2 Shaina

Shaina

    Resident Phlebotomist

  • Members
  • 3,423 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 08:06 PM

Please answer me, IT IS VERY VITAL FOR MUSLIMS


Why?
Posted Image

#3 emehri

emehri

    Newbie

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:44 AM

For years it is a controversial issue among Muslim scholars and they refer to Jewish texts.
But I can't believe this theory because Muslim scholars do not have enough information about Torah. Unfortunately scholar Jews don't interfere in this subject. Perhaps I am the first awake and hard-believing Muslim asking Jew brothers about this matter.
Any ideas ?

#4 Short

Short

    Humanistic Misanthrope

  • Members
  • 5,775 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:24 AM

Hi there
There's a strange person mentioned in Qur'an as "Dhul-qarnayn", literally meaning "two-horned one" or "two-century living man".
It's more than 1000 years that scholar argue who he really is. The most famous and widely accepted theory is that he is in fact Alexander the Great. But in the last century a new theory was introduced stating that he is in fact Cyrus the great.
No one can help us more than Jewish brothers, since he is mentioned is Torah.

Please answer me, IT IS VERY VITAL FOR MUSLIMS :
1 - Does Cyrus have any relations with Gog and Magog ?
2 - Did he really built a wall ?
3 - Did he believe in the Judgement day ?
4 - Is there any relations between Torah and ancient Persian statues?
5 - Is there any relations between Cyrus and the ram which Daniel dreamed ?
6 - Is this story fundamentally true ?!

Thank so much

I can not answer most of your questions, but with my limited knowledge, I will try.

1, I do not thing so. I don't know what you know of Gog and Magog, but the (limited?) Jewish belief of them is that they will be great wars before the coming of the Jewish Messiah. This has not yet happened. I don't know how literally mainstream Judaism see this "Gog" and "Magog".
2. We believe he supported the rebuilding of the Jewish Second Temple, financially and politically. Which wall?
3. Like an apocalypse or end of the world? Not that we know of. Why?
4. No. Documented Jewish association with Persians begins roughly after the Babylonian conquest of Israel/Judea, long long after the Jews received the Torah, which was after the Exodus from Egypt. Although a number of cultures and/or tribes had interactions with the Jews during the periods in between the Exodus and the Babylonian conquest, including the Medianites, Moabites, Amalekites, etc. the Persians (Parsi'im) are not mentioned iirc.
Ask a seismologist why there was a tsunami, don't ask a rabbi. - Moshi

#5 Psychodad

Psychodad

    88

  • Members
  • 7,376 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:42 AM

For years it is a controversial issue among Muslim scholars and they refer to Jewish texts.

that doesn't seem very likely.
I couldn't possibly imagine a Jewish "controversial issue" refer to Muslim texts. I smell a lot of bs around here

#6 Bet Chesed

Bet Chesed

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 828 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:14 PM

that doesn't seem very likely.
I couldn't possibly imagine a Jewish "controversial issue" refer to Muslim texts. I smell a lot of bs around here


Further, the basis for Islam is that while HaShem is the same as Allah the "sneaky Jews" corrupted all of the scriptures to obscure G-d's true will. Hence the need for their prophet's revelation - to steer the world clear from the Jew's corruption of the true deen. I guess that doesn't mean that they don't pick and choose where convenient though.
Blessed be all

#7 Bezalel

Bezalel

    Stud muffin

  • Members
  • 3,522 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:31 PM

Which wall?

The Wikepedia article on Dhul-Qarnayn states that Islamic scholars most identify him with Alexander, Cyrus the Great, or Heraclius. Islamic belief is that Dhul-Qarnayn built a great wall to keep Gog and Magog from attacking peoples to the East.

I regret that my knowledge of Torah is not adequate to answer the questions posed by the original poster. I can at most address his questions #5 and #6. Wikipedia explains that the Arabic term "Dhul Qarnayn" is equivalent to the Hebrew term "Ba'al Qarnayn," which appears in Daniel 8:20.

As the poster alluded to, Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel presents an apocalpytic vision in the third year of King Belshazar (ca. 8th Century BCE.). In verse 8:3, Daniel sees a ram with two horns, one being higher than the other. In verse 8:5, Daniel sees a male goat with a single horn. In verse 8:7, the male goat hits the ram, breaking its two horns. Daniel 8:20 reads:
הָאַיִל אֲשֶׁר-רָאִיתָ, בַּעַל הַקְּרָנָיִם--מַלְכֵי, מָדַי וּפָרָס.
"The ram which you saw, having the two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia." So one horn represents a king of Media and one horn represents a king of Persia.

Daniel 8:21 then identifies the male goat as the King of Greece. So the prophecy is that the King of Greece shall defeat the kings of Media and Persia, with Ba'al Qarnayn personifying the kings of Media and Persia.

As far as questions #5 and #6, scholars will obviously disagree over whether a prophecy was fulfilled, and if so, which event it prophesized. Also, while true believers believe the Book of Daniel was written in the 6th century BCE, "Bible critics" believe it was written in the 2nd Century BCE, and thus the "prophecy" was really based on what by that point was history.

Cyrus the Great was the king of the first Persian Empire, and conquered Media. The first Persian Empire lasted 220 years until Alexander the Great came along. At that time, Darius III lead the Persian Empire, and Alexander defeated him. Alexander was certainly Greek, so I don't understand how he could be viewed as Ba'al Qarnayn. It would make more sense for Ba'al Qarnayn to be viewed as either Cyrus the Great (who formed the empire that was conquered 220 years later by Alexander), or Darius III (who actually led the empire at the time of its conquest by Alexander).

The Bible critics who think that the prophecy was written after the fact, in the 2nd Century B.C., suggest an identification of the little horn to Antiochus Epiphanes.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users