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This is how I feel about the Beit Shemesh situation

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#1 smishu

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:12 PM

When Fealty To Jewish Law Becomes Misogyny





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Gail Bendheim
Tuesday, January 3, 2012
Gail Bendheim
Special To The Jewish Week
The shocking behavior of a small group of haredi militants in Israel has forced me to face the difficult reality of just how much divides the Modern Orthodox Zionist community, of which I am a member, from that of the haredim, despite our sharing of an ancient text.
Until recently I viewed haredi beliefs and attitudes as benignly different than mine. But I have come to see that those haredi views lend themselves to extreme behaviors that are actually threatening my way of life, despite the fact that I live thousands of miles away from Beit Shemesh. More importantly, I have had to acknowledge my sickening sense that these destructive behaviors are occurring along an ugly and dangerous fault line that imperils the viability of the State of Israel.
A recent YouTube video, gone viral, highlights the activity of abusive haredi activists in Beit Shemesh who are hurling insults and epithets at females whom they believe are not dressing properly.
“Ani ish bari!” (“I am a healthy man!”) trumpets a young haredi man in a car, in response to a reporter’s questions about men who called an 8-year-old schoolgirl a “loose woman” because they felt her clothing to be immodest.


What does this man’s health have to do with this little girl’s clothing? It takes several synaptic jumps to realize that he is referring to his robust sexual urges — apparently a sign of health in a red-blooded man — which are seemingly stirred up by the sight of this little girl in her long skirt and blouse. Healthy? Maybe those urges feel scary — as well they should. Or maybe out of control — as they most certainly are. But healthy? Really? I think not. Sexualizing a young girl should set off alarm bells, but this man’s religious stance gives him the cover not to have to hear them.
So what assumption is operating for this man that allows him to shout these words without worrying that he might be crossing a line? Is he trying to make the point that Judaism requires women to cover up because men — whose “health” is to be both vaunted and protected at all costs — can’t, and shouldn’t even be asked to, control themselves? What is his statement if not a poorly veiled justification of sexual abuse, a religiously clad declaration that inadequately covered females of any age are fair game?
It is not by chance that the community where this behavior originates has chosen to call itself haredi (literally, trembling with fear). For just as fear and trembling fuel their relationship to God and God’s commandments, so does fear fuel their relationship with other aspects of God’s world. In a relationship based on fear, there are only two possibilities — submission or domination. Submission to the ultimate will of God may be a positive religious stance; however, to be overly fearful has an ominous flip side, which is to be rigidly authoritarian. When the community becomes vulnerable, especially at its edges, where there is less stability, the situation we are now witnessing is the result. Hence this powerful fringe group, driven by fear of modern society, rigidity and ignorance, and unable to process any aspect of the world that doesn’t conform to its fantasy of the perfect life.
Using force and abuse to ensure that their external reality will accommodate their needs, they flout both the principle of human dignity upon which their country was founded, and the Torah’s language of “Tzelem Elohim” (that humans were created in the image of God), a term they seem to have reserved for themselves alone. Unfortunately, the response to this sadistic, narcissistic bullying, done in the name of God, has been inadequate to the threat it represents to the particular people it targets, to the democratic country of Israel, and to the Jewish religion.
Something is shockingly, perilously, toxically awry in a society where even a small percentage of men who think this way about women are bolstered by an interpretation of the Torah that supports their sexist agenda, and are rewarded by a polity that wants their votes. Where are the haredi rabbis? Where are the political leaders? This is a perfect Taliban-like storm, and it requires a strong religious, political, economic, cultural and philosophical response commensurate with its destructive power.
The weak response of mainstream haredim is not enough. The revolting demonstration this weekend of haredim dressed as Holocaust victims wearing yellow stars defines profanity. Moreover, reactionary measures resulting from mainstream haredi initiatives such as the “back of the bus” phenomenon in Jerusalem, and the absence of pictures of women in Jerusalem advertisements, are sexist and destructive, and combine to create an all-too-logical context for the playing out of these extreme forces.
Immediate action is called for. In Israel, the government needs to take strong steps to criminalize this behavior and withdraw economic entitlements and political rewards for the nefarious activities of these groups. Every religious leader needs to powerfully condemn this violence and take pains to make it stop. We in America must use the power of our purse, refusing absolutely to support any institutions that do not indisputably condemn and take action against the madness we are seeing on the streets of Israel.
Finally, as a people, we have to examine carefully and courageously what it is about our religious life that has led to such a deeply festering misogynistic impulse, masquerading as a celebration of woman’s exalted status in Judaism. Debasement is exaltation’s evil twin. Women and men, both created in God’s image, need to share in the responsibilities of modesty in all the ways that they live. We cannot allow depravity, frustration and ignorance to define our religious and political agenda unless we are prepared to have our lives, our religion, and our Jewish homeland brutally wrenched from our grasp.
Dr. Gail Bendheim is a psychologist in private practice in New York.

#2 running with scissors

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:42 PM

“Ani ish bari!” (“I am a healthy man!”) trumpets a young haredi man in a car, in response to a reporter’s questions about men who called an 8-year-old schoolgirl a “loose woman” because they felt her clothing to be immodest.

I guess I missed this part when i originally watched the vid...this is mind numbing.

So this guy finds 8 year olds sexually alluring, and in fact believes this to be acceptable, so much so that he uses this belief to shamelessly defend his criminal behavior (in a very public forum)...? If this is really what he meant to say(I truly hope that it's not), then I look forward to this pervert getting jailed and raped regularly in prison...and when he protests his assailants will only have to respond that they are only doing what "healthy men" do in the absence of slutty 8 year old girls.
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#3 happyduck1979

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:51 PM

He did not just say it once either, he screams it repeatedly. He then went on to call the reporter a sick man for questioning him.
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

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#4 Sweet

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:33 PM

Although that is not what this conversation is about, and it should really be grounds for another topic, I don't think that her age affects the point one way or the other. Men are affected by certain eight year old girls dressed certain ways. Women have a weird denial mechanism WRT this stuff.
The world has too many stupid people who are full of confidence, and smart people who are full of self-doubt.

#5 starwolf

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:16 PM

Men are affected by certain eight year old girls dressed certain ways. Women have a weird denial mechanism WRT this stuff.


Huh? I am a man. How would the dress of an 8-year old girl affect me. If you menat to write 18-year-old girl, I might agree--but an 8 year old??????

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#6 happyduck1979

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:23 PM

what is WRT?
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

Empty Cradle, Empty Heart My thoughts, rants against God, and prayers after have a still birth of a very wanted little girl in February of 2011.
Why I choose to put private information in a public location

Our Aliya Blog Lots of pictures.
Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
Coming soon. A blog to keep track of my other blogs.

New Site. New Stuff. New Sales. Swirsky Designs

#7 running with scissors

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 01:34 AM

Although that is not what this conversation is about, and it should really be grounds for another topic, I don't think that her age affects the point one way or the other. Men are affected by certain eight year old girls dressed certain ways. Women have a weird denial mechanism WRT this stuff.

wth?
An eight year old girl is a child. Men who are sexually attracted to children have serious psychological issues and are pedophiles. Men who act on this attraction are child molesters. There is no denial mechanism in calling something what it is.
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#8 happyduck1979

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:12 AM

Their own books say children that age are off limits. I have no idea where this guy is coming from and I think the entitlement attitude (and I am not talking financial here, I am talking of the "I can't control myself so I take what I want and it is their job to keep me from sinning" attitude. Entitlement is the wrong word but I could not come up with a better one).

Okay midrash says Rifka was three and the talmud talks about "marrying off" children under the age of 12, but most people think it is pretty clear that these marriages were not consumated until much, much, much later.
"Don't listen to people who try to defend what God has done to you. God is a big boy. He can take care of himself. You take care of you"-unknown comforting visitor after we lost Gabbi

Empty Cradle, Empty Heart My thoughts, rants against God, and prayers after have a still birth of a very wanted little girl in February of 2011.
Why I choose to put private information in a public location

Our Aliya Blog Lots of pictures.
Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
Coming soon. A blog to keep track of my other blogs.

New Site. New Stuff. New Sales. Swirsky Designs

#9 starwolf

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:46 AM

Their own books say children that age are off limits.

these folks don't pay much attention to what is written in "their"--i.e. Jewish books. There is too much in those books about acting like a human being.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#10 chiloni

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 03:32 AM

On a broader level, this whole issue seems to me to be a crisis of education systems / leadership. For all anyone can say that the thugs are 'not representative', the fact is that other groups of Jews do not have this problem. I'm yet to see a reform Jew spit at an 8 year old girl.

A lot of this relates to the policies that have been implemented by the 'gedolim' in terms of no education, loads of children for everyone, no work, and a separatist mentality. Anyone who thinks that these policies are not going to produce a cadre of angry young men who vent their frustration in antisocial ways is deluding themselves.

Rav Lichtenstein, in a sicha given over Chanuka, expressed his anguish at the lack of 'daas' that the Charedi leadership displays in its promotion of these policies. To quote R. Gil Student's summary of Rav Lichtenstein's views:

R. Lichtenstein addresses two specific policies that he finds indicative of poor leadership:
Planned Poverty – With no education or job training, and a requirement to have a large family, the Charedi leadership has set people up for disaster. Where is the wisdom and foresight? Where is the profound sensitivity to the personal anguish these policies cause?

Separatism – A component of the mitzvah to love God is to cause others to love Him. Charedi leaders promote their own communities and in the process alienate, and often harshly insult, outsiders. This, in turn, distances many people from traditional Judaism.


I tend to think that to the extent there is any ‘leadership’, the leaders don’t think in consequentialist terms whatsoever. I don’t think Rav Elyashiv sits down and thinks, “Well, if we deprive subject X from our children, then household income will be Y lower in 25 years time”. Rather it’s, “the holy gedolim before me were moser nefesh to keep the ‘pach shemen’ free of outside influences, and I must continue to do so. As for the consequences, it is up to us to follow what Hashem wants, and Hashem will provide for us”.

Basically, the system is only going to improve when the Charedim either grow too large or too annoying for the majority to continue subsidizing them. This will force them into the mainstream, and people with jobs are less likely to loiter around all day getting worked up about nonsense.
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#11 starwolf

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 04:52 AM

Basically, the system is only going to improve when the Charedim either grow too large or too annoying for the majority to continue subsidizing them.


This is happening right now. The "annoying" part is off the charts. The more spitting, the more dressing children in concentration camp inmate-like clothing, the more cries of "nazi"--the more furious the Israeli population gets.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ


doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#12 chiloni

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:09 AM

I'll believe it when I see it. I actually think that a good proportion of the blame for this situation rests on the moderate majority who have funded it, and with political parties that have preferred to make coalitions with those whose education system and workforce participation rates pose a real threat to their country's economy rather than act like adults and sort out their differences with others who share a commitment to not turning their country into a third-world banana republic. I actually don't think that many of the politicians give a fig about selling the country down the river, as long as they can stay in power.

More to the point, I have little faith that all this overblown media coverage will actually translate into sensible policies such as putting a limit on army exemptions or not funding schools which don't teach the national curriculum (like every other developed country). I simply don't believe that Israeli political culture is mature enough for either the public to really understand and lobby for what needs to be done or the politicians to execute it. It's much more fun to scream at each other.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you need to concentrate on."
"I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah."
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#13 running with scissors

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:49 AM

Their own books say children that age are off limits. I have no idea where this guy is coming from and I think the entitlement attitude (and I am not talking financial here, I am talking of the "I can't control myself so I take what I want and it is their job to keep me from sinning" attitude. Entitlement is the wrong word but I could not come up with a better one).

Okay midrash says Rifka was three and the talmud talks about "marrying off" children under the age of 12, but most people think it is pretty clear that these marriages were not consumated until much, much, much later.

The fact that it even needs to be pointed out that "their books say children are off limits" is pretty horrifying. One would think that we are talking about a bunch of neanderthals who run around naked, sticking it into anything that moves any time the mood happens to strike. Are we supposed to assume that all men would be child molesters if not for the social stigmas that are attached to having sex with little kids?

It's clear that the "three year olds" in biblical times were nothing like three year olds today. It is also quite obvious that almost none of those stories are good measuring sticks for deciding what is appropriate behavior nowadays,
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#14 chiloni

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:54 AM

It's clear that the "three year olds" in biblical times were nothing like three year olds today.


I don't think that's clear at all. Have you ever asked an anthropologist? Humans haven't evolved that much in 3000 years. We can study these things you know.
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#15 Snag

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:59 AM

I don't think that's clear at all. Have you ever asked an anthropologist? Humans haven't evolved that much in 3000 years. We can study these things you know.

I think it's clear that what she means is that, among those who take such midrashim literally, there is also a belief that children matures more quickly then.

And re: your earlier post that this is specifically a chareidi failing, while your reasoning is sound, the facts don't follow your assertions, since it was pointed out in other threads about rhis situation that chareidi children have been attacked by non-chareidi adults, on occasion.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#16 running with scissors

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:01 AM

I don't think that's clear at all. Have you ever asked an anthropologist? Humans haven't evolved that much in 3000 years. We can study these things you know.

How many three year olds do you know that are are capable of drawing gallons of water from a well and feeding a whole bunch of camels? Or of making life changing decisions to travel across the desert to create a new life for themselves? Most three year olds I know spend a majority of their time crying for candy or their mothers
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#17 chiloni

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:04 AM

You are right about that. I should have said that this is a specifically Israeli failing. By chutz la'aretz standards I am (sort of) Charedi myself. But I still think the culture is unhealthy and promotes nastiness, even among the less extreme, and that all leaders in the Israeli Charedi orbit should take more ownership of the problem. I agree that this is basically non-existent amongst American yeshivish people and the like.
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#18 chiloni

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:08 AM

How many three year olds do you know that are are capable of drawing gallons of water from a well and feeding a whole bunch of camels? Or of making life changing decisions to travel across the desert to create a new life for themselves? Most three year olds I know spend a majority of their time crying for candy or their mothers


I'm not sure this discussion is going to get very far, but I don't know any, and I don't think there were any 3000 years ago either.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you need to concentrate on."
"I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah."
- George W. Bush

#19 Snag

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:12 AM

You are right about that. I should have said that this is a specifically Israeli failing. By chutz la'aretz standards I am (sort of) Charedi myself. But I still think the culture is unhealthy and promotes nastiness, even among the less extreme, and that all leaders in the Israeli Charedi orbit should take more ownership of the problem. I agree that this is basically non-existent amongst American yeshivish people and the like.

Agree (I think - I'm too tired to assess the full implication :p)

I'm not sure this discussion is going to get very far, but I don't know any, and I don't think there were any 3000 years ago either.

Right - so you're disagreeing with taking the medrash literally, not with rws's assertion that /if/ the medrash is to be understood literally. It has no relevance to pedophilia today.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#20 chiloni

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:15 AM

Right - so you're disagreeing with taking the medrash literally, not with rws's assertion that /if/ the medrash is to be understood literally. It has no relevance to pedophilia today.

Yes, so there are no nafka minos between our position (at least in terms of what we regard as acceptable to think about little girls).
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you need to concentrate on."
"I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah."
- George W. Bush




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