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This is how I feel about the Beit Shemesh situation

Excellent article

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43 replies to this topic

#41 Monte Cristo

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 03:21 PM

This isn't about sexuality. It's about certain overzealous people insisting that everyone in their vicinity adhere to a uniform they feel comfortable with. It's about imposing their will on others, not protecting themselves from the non existent sexuality of eight year old girls. At least that's my hope. People who see eight year olds as sexual are not normal.

I don't understand what you're saying. Either eight year olds are sexual or they're not. If they're not, what they wear shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

Exactly, luckily it's only a few people. That doesn't detract from their ability to make others look bad sadly. The weak replies from the Hareidi community aren't helping, it's obvious that the actions of these people can't be attributed to it, but a stronger response is needed.
1) "I pray my wife has a sex addiction, because I'm more than happy to be an enabler" - Frummy frum
2) "Hanukah is about throwing spears at people who assimilate" - Rentsy
3) "Are you trying to say that consummating one's marriage is bittul Torah?" - Savannah
4) "Men are so insecure in their sexuality. If they see two men with a deep friendship -- gay. If they see a man who isn't constantly lusting after women -- gay" - Savannah
5) "Isn't a divine hora'at sha'ah an even better license to kill than whatever James Bond has?" - Rentsy
"D*mn right" - Snag
6) "Facebook is spiritual chametz, because one becomes inflated with one's sense self importance while sitting around doing nothing" - Rentsy
7) "I always thought belle was a i wrong?" - Village
8) "When searching for the common denominator for all the members of this site (marketing purposes), I discovered that all the participating members are 'black sheep' in their own cirlces. On, the mainstream is truly wacked" - Silent J
9) "oy. bible porn. that seems wrong" - Jewess
"I didn't write the script!" - Moshi
10) "I was recently involved in a discussion about the "Yeshiva Uniform", you know where jeans epitomize Satan, and God dresses like an Oreo cookie...." - Isreali4ever

#42 smishu



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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:49 PM

On a broader level, this whole issue seems to me to be a crisis of education systems / leadership. For all anyone can say that the thugs are 'not representative', the fact is that other groups of Jews do not have this problem. I'm yet to see a reform Jew spit at an 8 year old girl.

A lot of this relates to the policies that have been implemented by the 'gedolim' in terms of no education, loads of children for everyone, no work, and a separatist mentality. Anyone who thinks that these policies are not going to produce a cadre of angry young men who vent their frustration in antisocial ways is deluding themselves.

Rav Lichtenstein, in a sicha given over Chanuka, expressed his anguish at the lack of 'daas' that the Charedi leadership displays in its promotion of these policies. To quote R. Gil Student's summary of Rav Lichtenstein's views:

I tend to think that to the extent there is any ‘leadership’, the leaders don’t think in consequentialist terms whatsoever. I don’t think Rav Elyashiv sits down and thinks, “Well, if we deprive subject X from our children, then household income will be Y lower in 25 years time”. Rather it’s, “the holy gedolim before me were moser nefesh to keep the ‘pach shemen’ free of outside influences, and I must continue to do so. As for the consequences, it is up to us to follow what Hashem wants, and Hashem will provide for us”.

Basically, the system is only going to improve when the Charedim either grow too large or too annoying for the majority to continue subsidizing them. This will force them into the mainstream, and people with jobs are less likely to loiter around all day getting worked up about nonsense.

This is an excellent post. I guess the question is, is that ever going to happen, for Israel to actually start putting some responsiblity on the chareidi community. This community is very willing to take money, army exemptions, and free schooling, but only expects more and more without giving back. I am honestly scared for the future of Israel.

#43 smishu



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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:56 PM

This discussion is based on the two sides arguing about different things. Religious people are disturbed by (I'm searching for the word here... rampant? Free? Outgoing?) sexuality. The reason for this is not that they might just be tempted to rape her, and if she's eight, that would be bad (unlike if she was an adult). For personal, inwardly focused reasons, they just don't want to be exposed to it.
Children in certain dress can present such sexuality. It may not be alluring, it may not be "tempting" per se to an adult. But it is sexuality of the type that certain religious people don't want to be exposed to.
Furthermore, although the point hasn't been made here about tweens who appear older than they are, that presents not only the issue that I described above, but also the fact that they often look as sexually "relevant" as adults. In that scenario, nobody would disagree that the average man is affected by it. To be sure, the average man understands that an early developing girl is not fair game, even if she's wearing hot pants that say "Flirt" across the backside (which the article above would describe as being completely asexual, because after all, the girl is only sixteen and the age of consent in her state is 17.) But it is still an overt display of sexuality of the type that religious people may not be comfortable encountering. (See also, Eminem, @ss like that).

As I said in the other thread if someone doesnt want to "see" sexuality in the women around them should practice shmirat eiynayim. However, no matter how you spin it seeing sexuality in an 8 year old girl is disgusting, and the other of the article in the OP addresses this and I agree: seeing sexuality all around you and being so bothered by it even in inappropriate contexts is a direct result of the chareidi preoccupation of repressing sexuality/women in general and leads to a lot of misogyny.

#44 israeli4ever


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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:47 PM

The fact that it even needs to be pointed out that "their books say children are off limits" is pretty horrifying. One would think that we are talking about a bunch of neanderthals who run around naked, sticking it into anything that moves any time the mood happens to strike. Are we supposed to assume that all men would be child molesters if not for the social stigmas that are attached to having sex with little kids?

It's clear that the "three year olds" in biblical times were nothing like three year olds today. It is also quite obvious that almost none of those stories are good measuring sticks for deciding what is appropriate behavior nowadays,

Either Neanderthal men or upper class Greek citizens...
Disclaimer: The comments made by this poster do not necessarily represent an actual opinion, they are merely the latest output of an infinite amount of monkeys working on Shakespeare

"Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!" - Razie

"If you don't sin... Jesus died for nothing."

"because teaching is all about obscuration and obfuscation.."
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