19 replies to this topic

[israeli4ever]

I've been thinking about all the complaints posted against the Charedi leaders for not speaking out and condemning the behavior of the lunatics in RBS that pose as God-fearing Jews. So far, not knowing many facts, I'm inclined to agree. But this raises the question about all the other people in a position to speak out against the violence. Does anyone who didn't speak out (and could have) share in the blame?
This has been going on and public information since the beginning of September, and just broke in a big way recently. That's close to 3 months of silence from the major new outlets. Shouldn't we draw the same conclusion about the media as we do about anyone else's silence?

[happyduck1979]

It was only the protest a couple of weeks ago that was big enough to get any notice outside of Beit Shemesh. You can't really blame anyone for not knowing about what was, essentially, an internal Beit Shemesh problem until then. We are not normally a huge news-maker of a city (until now).

But even those directly involved have not made a huge effort to spread the word outside the local area until recently. I asked a parent at the school how come people who have known them forever but are still back in North America still did not know what was going on and I was answered that until they knew it could not be handled internally they tried to keep the chilul Hashem to a minimum in the news.`

[israeli4ever]

It was only the protest a couple of weeks ago that was big enough to get any notice outside of Beit Shemesh. You can't really blame anyone for not knowing about what was, essentially, an internal Beit Shemesh problem until then. We are not normally a huge news-maker of a city (until now).

But even those directly involved have not made a huge effort to spread the word outside the local area until recently. I asked a parent at the school how come people who have known them forever but are still back in North America still did not know what was going on and I was answered that until they knew it could not be handled internally they tried to keep the chilul Hashem to a minimum in the news.`

Then you wouldn't blame the Charedi leadership for not speaking out until now either, I assume.


I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the reason, but its an interesting thought...

[happyduck1979]

Then you wouldn't blame the Charedi leadership for not speaking out until now either, I assume.


I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the reason, but its an interesting thought...

If you are talking about the leadership outside Beit Shemesh, no. Chareidi leadership internal to either group directly involved or to Beit Shemesh? Absolutely I blame them. This is especially true of the Chareidi mayor who not only did nothing but took an active roll in making it worse.

[israeli4ever]

If you are talking about the leadership outside Beit Shemesh, no. Chareidi leadership internal to either group directly involved or to Beit Shemesh? Absolutely I blame them. This is especially true of the Chareidi mayor who not only did nothing but took an active roll in making it worse.

Agreed.
(BTW, I assume that R Lipman is RZ?)

[happyduck1979]

(BTW, I assume that R Lipman is RZ?)

I am soooooo not clear on lablels but I would say by most standards yes.

[starwolf]

It was only the protest a couple of weeks ago that was big enough to get any notice outside of Beit Shemesh. You can't really blame anyone for not knowing about what was, essentially, an internal Beit Shemesh problem until then. We are not normally a huge news-maker of a city (until now).

But even those directly involved have not made a huge effort to spread the word outside the local area until recently. I asked a parent at the school how come people who have known them forever but are still back in North America still did not know what was going on and I was answered that until they knew it could not be handled internally they tried to keep the chilul Hashem to a minimum in the news.`

This is incorrect. Although it is true that it was not national news till the media story broke, the hareidi leadership knew about it. For the simple reason that the dati leumi folks from Sheinfeld and Aviv who were affected had approached a great many major hareidi figures to try to get them to issue statements.

So although it was not national news, the hareidi leadership certainly knew. This includes several "gdolim" as well as the major hareidi politicians in the country.

[starwolf]

This is especially true of the Chareidi mayor who not only did nothing but took an active roll in making it worse.

A friend of mine from Bet shemesh says that there are only 2 things wrong with the mayore;'

"He's a tipesh and he's a rasha..."

[happyduck1979]

This is incorrect. Although it is true that it was not national news till the media story broke, the hareidi leadership knew about it. For the simple reason that the dati leumi folks from Sheinfeld and Aviv who were affected had approached a great many major hareidi figures to try to get them to issue statements.

So although it was not national news, the hareidi leadership certainly knew. This includes several "gdolim" as well as the major hareidi politicians in the country.

I agree there is a *VERY* good chance they knew exactly what was going on. But so far as I know it can not be officially "proven". I also made room in comment for that when I referenced those "involved". If you are (even unoffially) the Rav/Posek/Tzadik/Dayan/leader etc of a community, you had better make it your buiness to know if any of them are stepping that far out of line. If you don't that I certainly do not think you should be in a position of leadership. A man who learns all day and ignore what the rest of what his chevre are doing? Gezuntahay. Live with your head in the sand (but do not expect me to rescue you). You are a leader of that community? Different story all together.

A friend of mine from Bet shemesh says that there are only 2 things wrong with the mayore;'

"He's a tipesh and he's a rasha..."

Partially agree to both, but fully to neither. He has to have some seichel to get to where he is. On the other hand I do not think he is mamash EVIL, I just think he is self centered, self righteous and manipulative.

I think rat b!@#$% sums it up a little better.

[starwolf]

Partially agree to both, but fully to neither. He has to have some seichel to get to where he is. On the other hand I do not think he is mamash EVIL, I just think he is self centered, self righteous and manipulative.

I think rat b!@#$% sums it up a little better.

While I agree with your characterization of the mayor, I think that you give him too much credit. i don't know how long you have lived in Bet Shemesh, but there was a confluence of ethnic, religious and party politics that got him elected. He is a Shas party hack, and, as such, needed no seichel to get where he is.

And in addition to being "self centered, self righteous and manipulative" he is an out-and-out liar.

[happyduck1979]

While I agree with your characterization of the mayor, I think that you give him too much credit. i don't know how long you have lived in Bet Shemesh, but there was a confluence of ethnic, religious and party politics that got him elected. He is a Shas party hack, and, as such, needed no seichel to get where he is.

And in addition to being "self centered, self righteous and manipulative" he is an out-and-out liar.

I only got here a short while before he came in to power, but my husband and I made it our business to find out information before we voted (although we had someone scream at us for voting but that is besides the point. If we had not voted Chances are my husband would not have found his first job here.) My husband especially is quite aware of local politics.

The lying falls under manipulative to me.

[starwolf]

While he certainly breaks promises routinely like a great many politicians, he is out-and-out lying about his role in the school controversy.

[happyduck1979]

I never says otherwise. But I think he is doing it to manipulate to serve his own interests, not because he is capital E "Evil".

[hello kitty]

As far as I know no one would DARE talk out against them!!

[mellifera]

The other thread on this is pretty long, so maybe I missed it--but can you tell me why the police were never involved when these little girls were being spat on? Did the parents not want to involve the police? Are the police in someone's pocket? I don't get that part.

[starwolf]

The other thread on this is pretty long, so maybe I missed it--but can you tell me why the police were never involved when these little girls were being spat on? Did the parents not want to involve the police? Are the police in someone's pocket? I don't get that part.

The police were not involved in this because the mayor specifically refused to call them in.The MO parents were agitating for police invovement for months.

[mellifera]

The police were not involved in this because the mayor specifically refused to call them in.The MO parents were agitating for police invovement for months.

Not being familiar with Israeli norms, why did the police have to wait for the mayor? Wasn't this assault? Couldn't the parents file a complaint or whatever the equivalent is?

[starwolf]

the police were reluctant to get involved because the mayor discouraged it.

Prior to the school's opening, the hareidi protests consisted of constant vandalism. Once the school did open, the majority of the protests included vandalism (at night and on vacations) and screaming "shiksa priutza" at the girls, which is not against the law. The spitting was rare.

the police do not have enough manpower to cover the area 24/7, especially when considering that these folks will not hesitate to assault police officers--so a heavy presence is needed. And when the local authority discourages involvement, the police are happy to oblige him, as t saves them a helluvalot of trouble. The only thing that got them invoved was by going over the head of the mayor, to the Minister for Public Security.

The police have trouble arresting the violent offenders. They are protected by their fellow hareidim. None of the "innocent hareidim" living in that area will help with police identification of suspects--even for something as vile as spitting on little girls.

When the suspects are arrested, they are usually released on remand until trial. Hareidi politicians defend them, and pressure the legal system to go lightly.

And despite what the hareidim think, people are usually happy to go along with that, as the majority of the population of Israel is reluctant to bring the law down fully on hareidim.

I believe that this is now about to change, big time.

[qgh]

Dealing with the Haredim is not easy and the police would rather avoid doing it if they can get away with it. The Police in general is not looking for hard work.
The Arabs on Har Habayit are causing trouble for years. They riot, throw stones, destroy archeology ..... Every now and when the situation gets out of hand the police will go up and do something but in general they will do everything possible to try and avoid dealing with the arabs. Thus they limit Jewish freedom instead. They will take any steps to avoid dealing with the arab trouble makers.

[mellifera]

Thanks, Starwolf, that helps me understand the dynamics and the culture at work--quite different from NY, for example.