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#21 Snag

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:18 PM

Ah ok thanks..



How can we get inside the mind of the sofer - to determine if it was lishma or not?

We can't. Luckily, he is trusted to say that he wrote it lishmah. Although another way would be for him to verbalize his intent.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#22 int

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:29 PM

We can't. Luckily, he is trusted to say that he wrote it lishmah. Although another way would be for him to verbalize his intent.


So then how can a get ever be written without intent (so that the concept of stama lishma would even be applicable), if we always presume it was written lishmah?

#23 Snag

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:30 PM

So then how can a get ever be written without intent (so that the concept of stama lishma would even be applicable), if we always presume it was written lishmah?

We don't assume it was always written lishmah( we trust the scribe of he /says/ he wrote it lishmah.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#24 int

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:37 PM

We don't assume it was always written lishmah( we trust the scribe of he /says/ he wrote it lishmah.


Right, but when you said "A get, which needs to be written lishmah, cannot be stama lishmah", did you mean that we don't apply the concept of "stamah lishmah" to this case (of a sofer writing a get) - where an application would be : even if he didn't have any intent, by 'stama lishmah' it would still be ok, as if he had intent. Instead we simply presume he did have intent.

The end result is the same though..so what's the difference?

#25 Snag

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:46 PM

Right, but when you said "A get, which needs to be written lishmah, cannot be stama lishmah", did you mean that we don't apply the concept of "stamah lishmah" to this case (of a sofer writing a get) - where an application would be : even if he didn't have any intent, by 'stama lishmah' it would still be ok, as if he had intent. Instead we simply presume he did have intent.

The end result is the same though..so what's the difference?

But we don't presume he had intent. Een if we did, that would be different than stama lishmah, with the nafka minah being where the sofer acknowledges a lack of intent; if s"l, then it's good, if we're presuming intent, we can't do that when he contradicts that presumption.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#26 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:55 PM

Yes, like G-d, she often seems capricious and vengeful, but you must have faith tht she has your best interests at heart... (but she's always a woman to me :guitar:)

And you're right, ltl, the seforim do compare the marital relationship to the one between man and G-d quite a bit. In fact, that's one interpretation of the Talmudic dictum "if a man and woman are worthy, the shechina rests between them" that if they managed to work out a way to make their marriage work, they are that much more likely to be at peace with G-d as well.

I like that twist on it.

So does that mean those with working thriving marriages are more likely to be closer to God?
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#27 Snag

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:17 PM

I like that twist on it.

So does that mean those with working thriving marriages are more likely to be closer to God?

yep.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#28 LoveToLaugh

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:48 PM

yep.

This premise correlates to the premise of Belle's thread from last year: http://www.hashkafah...ng-to-the-left/
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.

#29 Snag

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:49 PM

This premise correlates to the premise of Belle's thread from last year: http://www.hashkafah...ng-to-the-left/

interesting.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#30 Dan

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:01 AM

... and if the intent cannot be default (e.g. A get, which needs to be written lishmah, cannot be stama lishmah, since stam isha lab legerushin kayma= a woman is not presumed to be getting divorced by her husband).

you sound like shemmy :p (i know, it was a typo)
כלל זה יהא נקוט בידך: מי שאינו רואה את המקום [=ה'] בכל מקום, אינו רואה בשום מקום
איפה נמצא אלוקים? בכל מקום שנותנים לו להיכנס
-Kotzker

נישט אלעס וואס מען טראכט דארף מען זאגען, נישט אלעס וואס מען זאגט דארף מען שרייבען, נישט אלעס וואס מען שרייבט דארף מען דרוקען און נישט אלעס וואס מען דרוקט דארף מען ליינען!
-R' Salanter

יש בן חורין שרוחו רוח של עבד, ויש עבד שרוחו מלאה חירות; הנאמן לעצמיותו בן חורין הוא, ומי שכל חייו הם רק במה שטוב ויפה בעיני אחרים הוא עבד
-R' Kook

#31 Snag

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:25 AM

you sound like shemmy :p (i know, it was a typo)

That woulda been labh :)
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain





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