Spinoff from LTL's thread.
What if you offer to host an engaged couple and they request to share a bedroom. Would you not allow them to come because you think that's wrong or would you live and let live, knowing that if you say no, they'll go somewhere else and share a room there?
Chosson and Kallah Shabbos - wanting to share a room
Started by
comfortingsong
, Jan 18 2012 12:36 AM
48 replies to this topic
#2
israeli4ever
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:24 AM
I would probably not allow it.
Disclaimer: The comments made by this poster do not necessarily represent an actual opinion, they are merely the latest output of an infinite amount of monkeys working on Shakespeare
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#3
greentiger
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:48 AM
it would make me uncomfortable. And not because i care if they are sleeping together. Because in my home i expect halacha to be respected. If they were sleeping in seperate rooms at the begining of the night and decidedto share a room at some point, i can't say i would mind or that its even my business. But i think a superficial keeping of halacha should be in place out of respect for the hosts.
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#4
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:50 AM
It depends on a LOT of factors.
If they were good friends of mine, and I didn't have a family to worry about I would probably OFFER them separate rooms but not make a fuss if they didn't take them...
If they were not such good friends (or I didn't know them at all), or "maras ayin" was an issue, I might not be so flexible...
If they were good friends of mine, and I didn't have a family to worry about I would probably OFFER them separate rooms but not make a fuss if they didn't take them...
If they were not such good friends (or I didn't know them at all), or "maras ayin" was an issue, I might not be so flexible...
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#5
Rentsy
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:43 AM
Sleeping with each other? Yichud is probably an issur d'oraita.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב
העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת
הלכה ג
אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה
העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת
הלכה ג
אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה
#6
Shaina
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:06 AM
I would allow it, though I'm bothered by the word "allow," which implies I'm their mashgiach or something.
#7
TimeRebbe
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:15 AM
I consider it to be more "my house, my rules" kinda thing. Even if you know they're sleeping together elsewhere, you don't need to permit something clearly against halacha in your own domain. Would you allow a shabbos guest to bring nonkosher food to your table?I would allow it, though I'm bothered by the word "allow," which implies I'm their mashgiach or something.
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"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR
#8
Pinchas
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:17 AM
I agree. I wouldn't want to encourage halacha to be broken inside my home.
#9
Shaina
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:19 AM
I consider it to be more "my house, my rules" kinda thing. Even if you know they're sleeping together elsewhere, you don't need to permit something clearly against halacha in your own domain. Would you allow a shabbos guest to bring nonkosher food to your table?
Listen, I have close friends/family who are very obviously not shomer mitzvos. I'd be delighted to hear they want to come for a Shabbos or something. It would be great if that person decided to share the experience with his/her significant other, and it would be laughable for me to be a policewoman and make them sleep in separate rooms (not that I have 2 rooms for guests, or even 1...) I wouldn't care if he/she brought nonkosher food into my home as long as it's kept away from my kids who would eat it and my table because of halachic reasons.
#10
TimeRebbe
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:24 AM
Oh gotcha. I was thinking of people who are otherwise frum; if you're talking about non religious people I think its a whole different ballgame. I still think I would be uncomfortable with the idea however.Listen, I have close friends/family who are very obviously not shomer mitzvos. I'd be delighted to hear they want to come for a Shabbos or something. It would be great if that person decided to share the experience with his/her significant other, and it would be laughable for me to be a policewoman and make them sleep in separate rooms (not that I have 2 rooms for guests, or even 1...) I wouldn't care if he/she brought nonkosher food into my home as long as it's kept away from my kids who would eat it and my table because of halachic reasons.
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR
#11
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:24 AM
my first reaction was that i wouldn't allow them to sleep in the same room, because i wouldn't want to be the enabler of halacha breaking, even if it goes on anyways. however, reading shaina's post made me realize that this only applies to people who are otherwise shomer mitzvos, or at least outwardly religious. if i had completely irreligious friends or family staying in my house, and they wanted to sleep in the same room with bf/gf, i would likely not get involved. (although i would ask them not to bring nonkosher food to the table or turn on lights outside their room on shabbos, and, based on my experience, they would be happy to oblige.)
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#12
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:28 AM
Right, I realize I sorta diverted from the OP's question.
Though it's no secret that many otherwise frum engaged couples have gone a lot further than their chosson/kallah teachers realize, I'm finding it hard to imagine a scenario where they openly request to share a room when going away as guests in someone else's home.
Though it's no secret that many otherwise frum engaged couples have gone a lot further than their chosson/kallah teachers realize, I'm finding it hard to imagine a scenario where they openly request to share a room when going away as guests in someone else's home.
#13
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הבל יפצה פי
Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:30 AM
i know many who have gone much of the way. and i know some who openly stay in one room, as long as they're not in their parents' houses.Right, I realize I sorta diverted from the OP's question.
Though it's no secret that many otherwise frum engaged couples have gone a lot further than their chosson/kallah teachers realize, I'm finding it hard to imagine a scenario where they openly request to share a room when going away as guests in someone else's home.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."
"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."
-Mark Twain
"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."
-Mark Twain
#14
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:34 AM
i know many who have gone much of the way. and i know some who openly stay in one room, as long as they're not in their parents' houses.
Right, so do I, but these usually aren't "otherwise frum" couples who are keeping all the other mitzvos. IME, they are the texting on Shabbos type. But then again, I do concede that this is just my experience, and I readily believe yours.
#15
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:38 AM
i know many who have gone much of the way. and i know some who openly stay in one room, as long as they're not in their parents' houses.
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#16
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:43 AM
I know one couple that lives together. On a recent shabbos at a mutual friends afruf, he stayed with the guys and the gf stayed with the girls.
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR
#17
LoveToLaugh
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Huh?
Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:24 PM
Of course its different if its a frum chosson / kallah or not. CS, I find the scenario pretty unrealistic and would have to say until I come across the situation I can't really imagine what I'd do.
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Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
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Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.
#18
happyduck1979
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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:33 PM
it would make me uncomfortable. And not because i care if they are sleeping together. Because in my home i expect halacha to be respected. If they were sleeping in seperate rooms at the begining of the night and decidedto share a room at some point, i can't say i would mind or that its even my business. But i think a superficial keeping of halacha should be in place out of respect for the hosts.
exactly
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Empty Cradle, Empty Heart My thoughts, rants against God, and prayers after have a still birth of a very wanted little girl in February of 2011.
Why I choose to put private information in a public location
Our Aliya Blog Lots of pictures.
Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
Coming soon. A blog to keep track of my other blogs.
New Site. New Stuff. New Sales. Swirsky Designs
#19
comfortingsong
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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:52 AM
How is this different in invited someone over to spend Shabbos when you know that s/he will be violating Shabbos in your house and in the room?it would make me uncomfortable. And not because i care if they are sleeping together. Because in my home i expect halacha to be respected.
I don't think it's unrealistic at all. This just happened to me two months ago.Of course its different if its a frum chosson / kallah or not. CS, I find the scenario pretty unrealistic and would have to say until I come across the situation I can't really imagine what I'd do.
#20
greentiger
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Posted 19 January 2012 - 04:38 AM
Its not only* about sex. Yichud is a real concern. Openly spending the night in the same room is in violation of halacha (although as was mentioned i would feel differently with a non frum couple)How is this different in invited someone over to spend Shabbos when you know that s/he will be violating Shabbos in your house and in the room?
*not at all actually because i would feel the same way even if they were clearly not having sex.
Treat each day as your last; one day you will be right
If a man stands in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
If a man stands in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
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