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←  Minhag & Halachah

Hashkafah.com

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Welch's Grape Juice

NIRC1's Photo NIRC1 21 Mar 2012

Someone I know uses Welch's in their house, does anyone know the reliability of the hashgacha?
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LoveToLaugh's Photo LoveToLaugh 21 Mar 2012

I'm pretty sure its not Kosher. As far as I know there is one non-Jewish brand that is kosher and i'm drawing a blank as to which one it is.

But its tricky cuz some brands have loads of other juices that have a hechsher but NOT grape juice.

I dont know what i'd do if I were you but I think it may be an achrayus for you to say something.
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Kalashnikover_Rebbe's Photo Kalashnikover_Rebbe 21 Mar 2012

Welch's grape juice AFAIK is not Kosher (if it IS it is a recent development)...

They DID once for a short time have kosher runs, which I believe were OU but they stopped it.

Other Welch's products do have Tri-K
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Red Hare's Photo Red Hare 21 Mar 2012

If it doesn't have an OU, forget it.
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josephal's Photo josephal 23 Jul 2012

To the above posters,

Please explain why it is not kasher according to halachah? Responses such "I'm pretty sure it's not kosher" or "AFAIK is not kosher" speak for themselves.

Red Hare, do you determine kashrut by whether something has a hechsher or not?

If one is truly knowledgeable in halachah and actually does research (such as calling Welch's) to find out their process, I'm sure you'd be surprised that Welch's is categorically kasher. Anyone who knows the sources would have to admit as much, whether they like it or not.
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Dan's Photo Dan 23 Jul 2012

I'm posting this mainly for the actual question:
http://www.kashrut.o...highlight=welch
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SUMMERSUP's Photo SUMMERSUP 24 Jul 2012

Um, I've definatly seen some that our OU! I've even tasted it i think..
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Pinchas's Photo Pinchas 24 Jul 2012

Are you sure? Were they cholov yisrael also?
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SUMMERSUP's Photo SUMMERSUP 24 Jul 2012

Are you sure? Were they cholov yisrael also?

Haha wtvr!
Look the labels also misleading!
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Pinchas's Photo Pinchas 26 Jul 2012

http://product_search.oukosher.org/


Yes, Grape Jelly is listed but not Grape Juice... I once asked about this and was told because the grape jelly uses powdered grape juice while the juice is always juice...
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josephal's Photo josephal 26 Jul 2012

http://product_search.oukosher.org/


I must ask . . . why rely on hechshers to determine kashrut?
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sal's Photo sal 26 Jul 2012

To the above posters,

Please explain why it is not kasher according to halachah? Responses such "I'm pretty sure it's not kosher" or "AFAIK is not kosher" speak for themselves.

Red Hare, do you determine kashrut by whether something has a hechsher or not?

If one is truly knowledgeable in halachah and actually does research (such as calling Welch's) to find out their process, I'm sure you'd be surprised that Welch's is categorically kasher. Anyone who knows the sources would have to admit as much, whether they like it or not.


What do you mean by research. If you mean to ask the company, why do you think they have ne'emanus?
According to halacha food does not need a hechsher. That does not mean its a practical solution. People that I know that do research on products even with hechsherim usually find more problems with the product.

I must ask . . . why rely on hechshers to determine kashrut?


Who would you like to rely on? Are kashrus organizations not reliable?
Quote

josephal's Photo josephal 27 Jul 2012

What do you mean by research. If you mean to ask the company, why do you think they have ne'emanus? According to halacha food does not need a hechsher. That does not mean its a practical solution. People that I know that do research on products even with hechsherim usually find more problems with the product.


Ne’emanut? What would Welch’s have to hide about their process? Think about it; are they marketing their grape juice to Orthodox Jews who would never drink it (albeit not for halachic reasons)? Food companies in the
USA are transparent when it comes to quality control; mirtat, lawsuits, bankruptcy are a few things that come to mind. It’s in their financial interest to be honest.

By “doing research,” however, I not only meant asking the company but also doing the legwork, like visiting the plant and seeing the process for yourself. The fact remains there are absolutely NO problems with the kashrut of Welch’s grape juice whatsoever. The burden of proof is on those who disagree.


Who would you like to rely on? Are kashrus organizations not reliable?



Sal, what did people do before kashrut organizations existed? Are we to assume they could not determine if something was kosher? If not, what has changed? (I guess those people had to deal with this impractical solution, chas ve’shalom)!

Considering the debased nature of the kashrut business it’s difficult to trust hashgachot. The level of incompetence is astonishing. Sorry to disappoint all those who have fallen victim to kashrut consumerism; as anyone in the business will tell you, mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) do not usually supervise the plants where the food is produced. This is true of the OU as well (for those of you who trust it SO much). This can be easily verified, especially when head people (like rabbis) who work for the OU confirm it. There is no such thing as "higher standards" in the kashrut business. It's a consumerism illusion.

On a more general note, this whole hechsher business is not a Torah concept. Rather, it is a concept made up by the hashgachah companies. Consider countries like France, Mexico, etc., that have an FDA equivalent. In these countries the Orthodox establishment makes available a list stating which foods are kosher, even though they do not have a hechsher of ANY kind. Are all these people eating non-kosher? The answer is no, and if that’s so, then the whole issue of hechsherim is irrelevant from a Torah level.

Nothing needs a hechsher, as no such law exists in the Torah. The only requirement is that the food needs to be confirmed that it is kosher; to that end, one can follow the Tannaim’s example and determine whether something is kosher by looking at the ingredients (with the exception of hard cheeses; for this a religious Jew needs to be present to observe the process, otherwise, even if all the ingredients are kosher, the cheese is not). People are losing their self-trust and confidence -- God-forbid that someone takes Jewish law into their own hands! . . . with a posek, of course; that obviously doesn’t sit well with hashgachah companies who invented this money-making concept.

I end by quoting what a wise man once said:

According to halacha food does not need a hechsher.”

- Sal, Hashkafah.com, post # 1687263
Quote

sal's Photo sal 27 Jul 2012

Clearly one point we both agree on is Halacha does not require a hechsher.

Ne’emanut? What would Welch’s have to hide about their process? Think about it; are they marketing their grape juice to Orthodox Jews who would never drink it (albeit not for halachic reasons)? Food companies in the USA are transparent when it comes to quality control; mirtat, lawsuits, bankruptcy are a few things that come to mind. It’s in their financial interest to be honest.



I would not trust the US government and their laws when it comes to kashrus. Not because of trust, but rather because of method of implementation. A judge can't judge such cases. What will happen in the lawsuit? Will they accept my rabbi to testify what is considered kosher? In the end of the day it will be up to a secular judge to issue a judgement.


By “doing research,” however, I not only meant asking the company but also doing the legwork, like visiting the plant and seeing the process for yourself. The fact remains there are absolutely NO problems with the kashrut of Welch’s grape juice whatsoever.


Not everyone has the time to do research, but if you did your research, I won't think you are not following halacha. But I don't believe its a solution that fits all. If that works for you go ahead, but you can't argue against those who use hechsherim to determine the kashrus.

The burden of proof is on those who disagree.


This is assuming you are right. I didn't do research so I don't know.

I don't think you are correctly shifting the burden of proof.
You are assuming that its muttar unless proven otherwise. This concept of Judaism is flawed. As it assumes that Jewish law is something that need to be avoided instead of being sought after.

Sal, what did people do before kashrut organizations existed? Are we to assume they could not determine if something was kosher? If not, what has changed? (I guess those people had to deal with this impractical solution, chas ve’shalom)!


You can't compare to the past. A) Food wasn't mass produced like it is today. B) Ingrediants were not imported from the 4 corners of the earth.
There are more potential problems.
There was no need for an FDA before factories started mass producing food, neither was there a need for a hechsher.


Considering the debased nature of the kashrut business it’s difficult to trust hashgachot. The level of incompetence is astonishing. Sorry to disappoint all those who have fallen victim to kashrut consumerism; as anyone in the business will tell you, mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) do not usually supervise the plants where the food is produced. This is true of the OU as well (for those of you who trust it SO much). This can be easily verified, especially when head people (like rabbis) who work for the OU confirm it. There is no such thing as "higher standards" in the kashrut business. It's a consumerism illusion.


It is permissible to rely on a chazaka and there is not always a need for constant supervision. Something can be absolutely pig meat and yet be permitted to eat. We call that bittul.


On a more general note, this whole hechsher business is not a Torah concept. Rather, it is a concept made up by the hashgachah companies. Consider countries like France, Mexico, etc., that have an FDA equivalent. In these countries the Orthodox establishment makes available a list stating which foods are kosher, even though they do not have a hechsher of ANY kind. Are all these people eating non-kosher? The answer is no, and if that’s so, then the whole issue of hechsherim is irrelevant from a Torah level.


It is not required, but it makes my life easier as I don't need to do research.


Nothing needs a hechsher, as no such law exists in the Torah. The only requirement is that the food needs to be confirmed that it is kosher; to that end, one can follow the Tannaim’s example and determine whether something is kosher by looking at the ingredients (with the exception of hard cheeses; for this a religious Jew needs to be present to observe the process, otherwise, even if all the ingredients are kosher, the cheese is not). People are losing their self-trust and confidence -- God-forbid that someone takes Jewish law into their own hands! . . . with a posek, of course; that obviously doesn’t sit well with hashgachah companies who invented this money-making concept.


I can read the ingredients and it tells me nothing. I don't even know what some of them are. I know its because of my lack of research. There are other factors involved. If an ingredient is non kosher does not automatically render the food not kosher. For that I rely on the machshir to understand the purpose of the ingredient to determine its kashrus status.

I think you are oversimplifying.
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mroof's Photo mroof 27 Jul 2012

I must ask . . . why rely on hechshers to determine kashrut?

What makes you assume I solely rely on hechshers?
Quote

mroof's Photo mroof 27 Jul 2012

What would Welch’s have to hide about their process? Think about it; are they marketing their grape juice to Orthodox Jews who would never drink it (albeit not for halachic reasons)? Food companies in the USA are transparent when it comes to quality control; mirtat, lawsuits, bankruptcy are a few things that come to mind. It’s in their financial interest to be honest.


What makes you rely on corporate interests?

There are plenty of corporations that lie, bully, and intimidate competitors in order to obtain an edge: I don't put it past any company. We can see just how public relations attempts can include lying in many cases (need I point out Chik-Fil-A and recent PR attempts to fix their reputation). Marketing grape juice to Orthodox Jews provides an edge, but it would most likely be a minimal loss that can be regained through other marketing tactics to other groups if needed.

By “doing research,” however, I not only meant asking the company but also doing the legwork, like visiting the plant and seeing the process for yourself. The fact remains there are absolutely NO problems with the kashrut of Welch’s grape juice whatsoever. The burden of proof is on those who disagree.


While this is great in theory: It is also extremely improbable for the general public. Most people have work to do and don't have the time to run-off and head towards a company factory to pay for check-ups. Essentially, that is WHY the hechsher system works to some degree: The hechsher process cuts out the middle man.

Sal, what did people do before kashrut organizations existed? Are we to assume they could not determine if something was kosher? If not, what has changed? (I guess those people had to deal with this impractical solution, chas ve’shalom)!


Really incomparable: But a majority of people produced/procured their own food personally and locally. This did not change until mass production became a more popular solution to food creation.

On a more general note, this whole hechsher business is not a Torah concept. Rather, it is a concept made up by the hashgachah companies. Consider countries like France, Mexico, etc., that have an FDA equivalent. In these countries the Orthodox establishment makes available a list stating which foods are kosher, even though they do not have a hechsher of ANY kind. Are all these people eating non-kosher? The answer is no, and if that’s so, then the whole issue of hechsherim is irrelevant from a Torah level.


I don't think anyone feels the 'hechsher' business is a Torah concept (nor have I seen anyone state this). Depending on your outlook here however: The FDA in the US is pretty bad when it comes to approving products for public consumption -- especially when over-time studies have yet to be researched on (I am speaking medicinally however, I am unsure of how 'strict' their food policies are. However, I'm not going to say that 'trusting' is a word I would use).
Quote

israeli4ever's Photo israeli4ever 27 Jul 2012



Ne’emanut? What would Welch’s have to hide about their process? Think about it; are they marketing their grape juice to Orthodox Jews who would never drink it (albeit not for halachic reasons)? Food companies in the
USA are transparent when it comes to quality control; mirtat, lawsuits, bankruptcy are a few things that come to mind. It’s in their financial interest to be honest.

Considering how often people who have a financial interest in being honest end up in jail for trying to increase their financial interest by being dishonest, this is not a very effective argument.

By “doing research,” however, I not only meant asking the company but also doing the legwork, like visiting the plant and seeing the process for yourself.

Or you can have a hechsher do the legwork for you.

The fact remains there are absolutely NO problems with the kashrut of Welch’s grape juice whatsoever. The burden of proof is on those who disagree.

How much expertise do you have in the relevant halachic issues that you are so comfortable with your assertion?

Sal, what did people do before kashrut organizations existed? Are we to assume they could not determine if something was kosher? If not, what has changed? (I guess those people had to deal with this impractical solution, chas ve’shalom)!

It is only relatively recently that hashgachos are relevant due to mass produced food. Beforehand, people made most of their food themselves.

Considering the debased nature of the kashrut business it’s difficult to trust hashgachot. The level of incompetence is astonishing.

you may be right, but if the level if incompetence is so high among those trained, how likely is it that I will be able to do any better on my own?

Sorry to disappoint all those who have fallen victim to kashrut consumerism; as anyone in the business will tell you, mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) do not usually supervise the plants where the food is produced. This is true of the OU as well (for those of you who trust it SO much). This can be easily verified, especially when head people (like rabbis) who work for the OU confirm it. There is no such thing as "higher standards" in the kashrut business. It's a consumerism illusion.

most foods do not require more than a "yotze venichnas".

On a more general note, this whole hechsher business is not a Torah concept. Rather, it is a concept made up by the hashgachah companies.

indeed it is not a Torah concept, it is a service to help those that are interested fulfill a Torah concept.

Consider countries like France, Mexico, etc., that have an FDA equivalent. In these countries the Orthodox establishment makes available a list stating which foods are kosher, even though they do not have a hechsher of ANY kind. Are all these people eating non-kosher? The answer is no, and if that’s so, then the whole issue of hechsherim is irrelevant from a Torah level.

what goes on in those countries is as much of a hechsher as what goes on in the US. The symbol on the label is not what makes or breaks a hechsher. The fact that a particular Rabbinate gives out a list instead of printing a symbol is just a different way of broadcasting the same information.

Nothing needs a hechsher, as no such law exists in the Torah. The only requirement is that the food needs to be confirmed that it is kosher; to that end, one can follow the Tannaim’s example and determine whether something is kosher by looking at the ingredients (with the exception of hard cheeses; for this a religious Jew needs to be present to observe the process, otherwise, even if all the ingredients are kosher, the cheese is not). People are losing their self-trust and confidence -- God-forbid that someone takes Jewish law into their own hands! . . . with a posek, of course; that obviously doesn’t sit well with hashgachah companies who invented this money-making concept.

I end by quoting what a wise man once said:

According to halacha food does not need a hechsher.”

- Sal, Hashkafah.com, post # 1687263

Nothing needs a hechsher, but everything needs to be kosher. The question is then what is the easiest, most reliable way of ensuring that the food is kosher.
Quote

israeli4ever's Photo israeli4ever 27 Jul 2012

I don't think you are correctly shifting the burden of proof.
You are assuming that its muttar unless proven otherwise. This concept of Judaism is flawed. As it assumes that Jewish law is something that need to be avoided instead of being sought after.

I very much disagree with this statement. Since when is assur until proven muttar a Jewish belief?
And how does it imply that Jewish law is something to be avoided?

You can't compare to the past. A) Food wasn't mass produced like it is today. B) Ingrediants were not imported from the 4 corners of the earth.
There are more potential problems.
There was no need for an FDA before factories started mass producing food, neither was there a need for a hechsher.




It is permissible to rely on a chazaka and there is not always a need for constant supervision. Something can be absolutely pig meat and yet be permitted to eat. We call that bittul.




It is not required, but it makes my life easier as I don't need to do research.

Agreed.
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sal's Photo sal 29 Jul 2012

I very much disagree with this statement. Since when is assur until proven muttar a Jewish belief?
And how does it imply that Jewish law is something to be avoided?


Any action taken by a jew should take into consideration, will it make me closer to hashem or not. Its not an assur muttar question.
If someone says prove to me that it's assur, it appears that he is just trying to follow the letter of the law and left out the connection to his creator.
The correct question should be how will this affect my relationship to my creator, not prove that its assur.
Quote