Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:11 PM
I don’t think I could make those claims without actually having done “research.” What did I learn? I learned that the processing of the grape juice conforms to halachah and is therefore kosher.
warren said: <<If not, how did you reach your conclusion that research will show it's kosher?
I'm going to skip arguments about whether to rely on hechshers or not - I am only trying to understand what arguments you have for it being kosher based on research.>>
Already answered ad-nauseum in previous posts. Mirtat, Shulchan Aruch in Orach Chayim and various posekim, among other sources. This is straightforward halachah, not my “arguments.” I see you seek understanding, but your statements (which are very common), as well-intentioned as they are show how far removed we’ve come from normative Jewish law. The fact that we do not know such basic halachah and all we know and hear is chumrot, is a sign of the times. These are not my own arguments.
warren said: <<In post 14 you said that research includes visiting the plant (so I'm hoping to see that you say somewhere that you've visiting the plant (or someone else did) and what you or they saw). >>
Yes, I’ve seen the plant in Westfield, NY with my own eyes; there are 2 others that also process the juice. If you’re asking what makes grape juice kosher, that’s another post in its own right. Briefly, the most important halachic aspects of the way the juice is processed at Welch’s plants: the temperature of pasteurization is way above bishul (therefore it is mevushal); pasteurization occurs while the juice is still in the grape, therefore once pressed it cannot become yayin stam if a non-religious Jew or gentile touches it. But even this is irrelevant because the entire process is by machine and the juice is never touched.
warren said: <<In post 29 you said that we can rely on a company's claims about its process to the public. But if you've mentioned what Welch's claims I missed it.>>
Welch’s does not market to the Orthodox Jewish public, so there are obviously no claims being made to that community. If they wanted to make those claims, they would obtain kosher certification from an orthodox kashrut agency. Seeing how the main subject of this thread is that one does not need a hechsher to determine kashrut, the only way to know something is kosher is to find out. One way of finding out is by calling the company and see what their claims are. The halachah says you can rely on this for kashrut.
By the way, there are Orthodox halachic opinions that all grape juice in the USA is kosher without inquiry or investigation.
Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:21 PM
I doubt that I would go out of my way to ask if I can't think of a problem. Maybe I would bring it up if I happen to see him
Why would you bring it up if you happen to see him? You just said if I can't think of a problem.
You are right, I confused the Ramchal with something else. Now that I have seen at least part of it, I still fail to see how he contradicts my point.
It wasn't supposed to. Just becuase we both learn gemara doesn't mean we must argue. The ramchal asks on one hand we see that you are supposed to stay away from gashmius and then we have nozir who brings a chatos for refraining.
As you may have noticed, Prishus is the step from Tzaddik to Chassid. To call someone anything less than a tzaddik for not practicing prishus is illegitimate according to the Ramchal.
I'm not sure if you believe that chasidus is optional, but I believe its not the case.
"אמר רבי יוחנן: לא חרבה ירושלים אלא על שדנו בה דין תורה. - אלא דיני דמגיזתא לדיינו? - אלא אימא: שהעמידו דיניהם על דין תורה, ולא עבדו לפנים משורת הדין " (בבלי, בב"מ ל' ע"א).
I am bringing a story to show that when properly directed, physical enjoyment is an Authentic Torah Value.
If I have time and patience, I will try to get textual sources.
Objectively, of course.
I am nit twisting anything. Vadai poison to vadai treif is tolerable. Anything less than that holds no water, assuming you accept the halachic process.
Halacha yells us how to treat a safek treif, and it is not comparable to how we would (be required to) treat safek poison.
You have a piece of meat that is safek nevaila safek shechuta would you eat it?
It looks like you fail to understand my mashal. Sorry, I couldn't think of a better one. I'm not changing halacha, I'm just saying you must be cautious to follow as you would be cautions from poison.
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