what causes cymbalta withdrawalzoloft dose during pregnancyviagra vs atrial fibrillationviagra 800mgwhats the most effective dose of viagraviagra over the counter italyhow long does it take viagra to take effectviagra and blood shot eyescipro 8 dayshow much time before levitra takehow do i get my doctor to prescribe viagralevitra providencevardenafil opisy uzytkownikowcialis for daily use how longmaxifort zimax sildenafil contraindicacionesuk viagra buy onlinehow to taper 10 ml prednisoneonlie cialis hungaryreviews generic viagra saleswhy in viagra commercials people are in bathtubshow much xenical 1 bottle mercury drug philippineswhats the second best thing than viagrabillig viagra kaufenviagra and horny goat weed is that ok togetheramoxicillin and clavulanate costatorvastatin maximum dosedoes viagra stopyou from jizzinggeneric zovirax 400mgviagra in canada do you need a prescriptionviagra koktel receptdangers generic cialisflomax generic versionhow much does cialis cost in nzcouypons for propecia at costcoaustralia 28 day course diflucan oralhelp paying for cialis medicarewhat makes cialis 40s better than 20sviagra western australiadiscount online viagra mastercardlame de viagra cialis levitratclomid online auviagra and nitroglycerin ointmentnifedipine pediatric dosecialis dosage funtadalafil 20 mg softgel under tonguediet pill synthroidwhere was viagra inventedviagra online bestellen forumdoes an erection stay after ejaculation with viagrabuspirone usual dosewhat are the chances of propecia workingcialis pricing and usahoodia brand hoodia hoodia weight loss diet pillketoconazole drug classificationprednisone side effects after 5 dayswhat was the price of viagra when it first came outhow long does it take sildenafil liquid to workwomen on viagrahow can i get viagra prescribedtaking cialis plus viagra togetherrisks viagragdansk vardenafilviagra pills ciliacan i buy viagra in phuketcialis ems in indiabuy clomid without prescription from uk storecan i give my wife cialisslim 5 diet pillgrandfatherve seen the box of viagraviagra delivery to australiametronidazole pills rosaceahindi viagra informationcan i take cialis and aderral togethercialis in rsashould i take viagra 24brands of tadalafil available in pakistanviagra turkey counteruso de calox sildenafilile koaztuje viagrahow low for fluconazole to work menwhere can i find coupons for plavix prescriptionviagra pakistan home deliverywellbutrin generic wpi 839metodo uv tadalafilherbal alternative of viagra in kolkatastrong viagra indiacialis online aslevitra orodispersible tablet ukside effects of singulair 10 allergy pilldo u take a whole or half a viagracan you buy clomid from pakistansildenafil 100 blueberry preisvergleichcialis commercial christmasfinasteride scoria india drugsOnline Levitra 30 pillsflagyl during pregnancy is it safedirections taking sildenafil 100mgviagra from californiacialis ingredfast delivery vardenafilviagra tablets from australia20mggenericcialissofttabsbuy nolvadexcialis lose potency after a whilecost cialis much 20vardenafil generico 10 mgdoxycycline hyclate for sale in brazilhow many tablets come in a box of sildenafil templehow long before a cialis start workingsubstitution cialiseorder free trial viagraviagra walgreens otcwhere can i buy cialis legallylevitra for 2clevitra expiration date safetyviagra 50 mg 100mg same price2012 how long for cialis to workdiks levitra in vagaina freeviagra online brandedwomen viagra chocolatewhat does ip clomid look likecost for zovirax 400 mg tablet in ukwhere can i cialis in honoluluorder sildenafil 50 mgplavix e genericowhere to buy generic viagra with mastercardwhere to buy clomid in limpoposildenafil citrate 100mg side effects in dogshow long after cialis take to workdoes viagra make men hornyhow long til levitra is out of your systemcialis made me hardercialis during pctsending myself viagra emailsdo rogain and propecia workcialis commercial couple in cartadalafil20m for womandoes viagra help cumshotsublingual cialis overnightviagra en colitispropecia purchase canadaviagra ny timeswhat is l vardenafilstreet price 20 mg cialismetronidazole 400mg what is price in singaporecan i use viagra without having any erectile problemscialis rip offstakeing cialis if you dont need itcan a human take a cats lasix pill if im bloatedwhere to buy clomid pcthow much is nexium in englanddoes viagra allow you to go more then oncebilly viagrachem no risk sildenafildoes viagra postpone ejaculationfree cialis without prescriptionbuy sertraline 100mg onlinecan u take advil with viagraperiactin pills for saleprice of cialis in uaebactrim generic no prescriptiondo viagra tablets work when one is drunkkjope levitra pa nettciprofloxacin 7 daysvardenafil length of effectivenessviagra seized customsman on viagra fuckingbuy zyprexa dissoving tabletscost of atomoxetine without insuranceno prescription kamagra oral jelly usaviagra ayurvedic tabletsprostrate recovery and viagrahow long will it take for one pill cipro to workviagra aus deutschland paypal bezahlenknow if terbinafine workingcan u buy metronidazole 500mg without prescriptiononline viagra dangerlevitra ohne rezept bestellencan i take cialis with alcoholdo online viagra pills workbuy metronidazole 500mg onlinesildenafil andros effects brainhow much does propecia cost at krogersis viagra available for pensioners in australialevitra cost lowviagra in malta kaufenhow fast do you loose weight on xenicalrx for viagratadalafil spike drinksviagra cialis levitra riga arwill viagra increase your enema pleasurehow to make your own kamagraviagra how much in uaegeneric synthroid vs synthroidcan you buy nexium off the shelf in ukhow do you feel after you take viagraviagra cheap torontocheapest viagra joblotalbuterol sulfate solution onlinecialis 2 hourswhat is walmarts price on viagraviagra cost at coscomanly sildenafil citrate india warningcan u buy a viagra from tescogeneric resistance to plavixdoxycycline 500mg 3 times a day for acne reviewsertraline generalized anxiety disorderwhat if a guy takes viagracan my dermatologist prescribe cialisviagra or other remedy what is bestdoes pink viagra work on menalbuterol puffer buyorder online cialis uaecheapest viagra in ukbuy tadalafil tabletssildenafil en wikipedialamisil how long does it stay in the bodyreviews on generic propeciadose of ciprofloxacin in hepatic abscessenema cialisred viagra cialis 200levitra commercial actorsbuy nexiumwhen using cialis do u remaintick bite fever doxycycline dosecan i take arginine and viagrabuy liquid metronidazole for petswhere can i get levitra 20mglisto sildenafilcialis causing hair lossis one dose of fluconazole enough for versicolorcialis hypotensionhow long will you have an erection with viagrasafe generic viagra manufacturersbuy diflucan capsulesbijwerking van viagrakamagra uk next day delivery securephenergan dose for 7 year oldcialis drug samplecipro class of drugscialis libby made in indiacheap same day viagracialis prise in indiabest place to bu y viagra onlinefirst time bangkok viagrazyprexa overdose testamoxicillin 500 mg not workingwhere can bye viagra malaysiaformula quimica del viagrahow often does somone go blind from levitraviagra cu reteta sau fara in chisinautook two 20mg cialishave tab viagra availabale in pakistanan you mix viagra and cialissildenafil citrate us pharmacopeiacipro dose for gonorrheacialis 10 mgm does not workwhat do i do if cialischeap brand name viagrabrand viagra offersspot fake tadalafilgenerig viagra 50mgcan men who are on warfin take viagracialis advertisement mengen 24 vardenafil50 mg viagra dosageadvice on how to maximize use of viagra for 18 year oldlevitra vai cialisrepeat boners from cialisi just bought abra 100 sildenafil citrate are they safecheep 40 tadalafil from indazithromax oral suspension without reciep buy onlinetypesviagra on linedo i need to eat before taking viagracan you buy cialis from mexicolike viagra over the counterbuy online propecia canadaviagra online perth deliverylasix for horses where to buyglass viagraafter you cum what is the recovery time for cialiscelexa not workingbuy viagra in bahamas or st martincialis and glyceryl trinitratewatermelon viagra effectskamagra jellies do they workwhere to get research nolvadexlong until neurontin starts workingg4 sildenafil pharmagenwhat does gabapentin 100 mg look likelist cialis side effectscheap genuine cialismaximizing effects of cialiscialis start actionwhat happens if a girl takes a mans cialiswhat is bactrim called in mexicoviagra blue sightanything equivalent to viagra thats over the counterphenergan drug cardhow much zithromax cures chlamydiamurad sildenafilwo cialis rezeptfreisildenafil citrate bp monographcheap cialis tablets australiacan you find viagra in storeslevitra available in saudi arabiauniversity of georgia diet pillthe women of cialis commercialcan i take two pills of cialis 20gnifedipine dose in pregnancysingulair generic whenviagraa clinictaking sotalol with viagrahow often can viagra be safely takenviagra how much sould i takebuy cialis made in hong kongbuy vardenafil online atshould you take viagra to masterbatepillole di cialisbest instructions for taking generic viagradoctors questions before prescribing cialisfertility drug clomid buyviagra head offic torontoaches from cialisnyc prescription for viagramalaysia can i buy viagralevitra 1 comprimidofinasteride online 1mgwhen did celebrex go genericcan you buy viagra otchow long does viagra take to work on mencialis reviews 10 mg10 mg lexapro works as good as 15mgcan a woman take cialis 20 milligramssildenafil felinelipstick viagrastrattera online forumcheap branded levitra on linecost viagra cialis levitra pricessell cialis in singaporegeneric viagra overnight delivery onlineseroquel generictadalafil generic no prescriptiondrugs sfx lisinopril side effects50 mg vs. 100 mg viagracialis floodingis a prescription required to order viagra from canadahow hard is erection with viagracialis new delhionline cialis couponstadalafil prostatitischeapest cialis with free shippingviagra cialis somaviagra di medanpropecia 36 monthscialis doctor orlando flgeneric cialis soft for saledoes bcbs except cialiscan i buy anything like viagracan cialis be broken in halfbuying levitra in ukcialis for circulationbuying viagra in indiametronidazole liquid generic nameblue cross blue shield viagraviagra procialis paysefcardis sildenafil a controlled substancecialis ohiowhich makes you harder viagra or cialissildenafil keskustelufree viagra pills yahoowhen to take viagra before suppersavings on viagrapurchase viagra 150 mgcialis thuoctaking tamoxifen and lingzhi is that safewhat is the maximum daily dosage of cialiswhat is better than kamagratadalafil 10 mg uk.recall on wellbutrin genericseroquel side overdose side effectstadalafil y arginina tabletaswhere to buy azithromycin 1 gm powder packet in ukmercury drug ciproclomid buying nzviagra cheap pharmacy iframebuy atorvastatin no prescription canadadose orlistat and metformin work for weight losscialis levitra viagra which is betterwhy would a woman use cialiswhat would happen if my wife takes my viagraviagra emotional side effects on womencan cialis and extenze be used at the same timecialis for sale cheap overnightviagra does erection go once ejaculatedviagra testimonials from womenviagra how many shotscost of 30 nexium capsulesfluconazole online canada pharmacyphilippines generic cialiswhat bcbs plans cover cialisviagra and medicare part dviagra blue fiser mgcialis 40mg prescriptionshow can u tell from real viagraviagra and whoressingulair pill identifier100g viagra to buyvaltrex online no prescriptionviagra eyqculacion600mg it safe wellbutrin xlcan you smoke pot whilst on cialiswhere to buy viagra oxforrd street londonbuy clomid without perscriptionsblazer 5 tadalafil reviewsviagra mentalbuying viagra online without prescriptionget generic viagra onlinefuck after tacking viagracost of generic acyclovirlexapro side effects first dosecan i bring viagra from mexico back to canadawhat affects levitrawhat can happen if you take too many cialisaverage dosage of cialiscan i split cialis 5mgviagra alternative bookless headaches with cialis than viagrahow long does viagra last informationwhat would happen if i take a heavy dose of cialisislexapro social phobia reviewshow much will viagra cost when it goes genericcost of cialis in ontariohow long will viagra keep eretviagra makes you hard even when not hornywhere can i buy cialist in singaporelexapro drug typewalmart cialis 10 mg price cheapsildenafil at cvsviagra worldwide pricewhy viagra with mastercardheadache viagrawhere can i purchase prednisoneviagra cant breathwhat is a good pill cutter for levitra 20mganxiety and viagrahow long does levitra stay in bloodis metronidazole on the shelf as otc drugs in usacan you get viagra cheaper thru aarpim 21 should i use viagraviagra on sevnty year oldsdoes cialis work if testoserone lowviagra online pay paldo i need to use cialis several times before it worksseroquel generic alternativehelp in paying for cialis walgreensdoes insurance pay for levitrais it ok to take two viagra pills in one daysildenafil calox como tomarlawhy is it called generic cialisun viagra naturalhow does plavix effect cattaract surgerydo cialis 5mg daily makes erection firmercialis viagra les meilleurs sitesviagra suppress blood pressurelady viagra namelow dose zyprexa for anxietyviagra with atrial fibrillationshould i tell her i use viagracan cialis cause your eye to bleedbeside viagra what else can i usereviews of hoodia diet pillswhat pill is like viagracytotec didnt work inductiondoes alcohol kill viagrado you have to have a subscription for viagraviagra online bank transfer ukis plavix same to buy onlineis diflucan safe for ringwormhow many viagra prescriptions are made a yearwhat is the mode of action of tadalafilvardenafil en mexicohow strong is cialis 5mgpropranolol viagraviagra 30tablets americancheap cialis with overnight shippingover the counter cialis phillipinescialis50mgdemir cialisvega sildenafil danger safe hypertensiongeneric viagra buyers indiaviagra online kaufen ohne rezepttamoxifen generic namealli diet pill availabilityhow much does cialis cost in el salvadorwhat is it like being on viagravets non prescription alternative to furosemide tabletsdiet pill reviewedwhat will happen if a lady takes viagra

Jump to content


Photo

hefsek tahara and dam besulim


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#21 qgh

qgh

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:23 AM

No offense, but I think that is more accurate.


No offense, but I wouldn't trust the gemara for sex advice.


Since you don't like that comment that was made or dont feel comfortable it is necessary for you to make an accusation. Very typical Orthodox / Haredi defense. Why not also acuse the person making that comment of being reform/ apikores .....

#22 sal

sal

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 843 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:17 PM

I think in this case we are dealing with a combination of minhagim and gzerot on gzerot that were not even instituted by the Sanhedrin.

1. 7 Nekiim that are kept to day for nida is a minhag started by women who lived in the fields. It lated became halacha to klal Israel.

That is not entirely correct. Only the 7th day is because of chumra d'rab zeira. All derabanans have to first be accepted by the masses. This is no different than any derabanan.

2. The 72 hours that is being discussed in now a gzeira on top of this minhag. There way to avoid the 72 hours for shfichat zera. Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I remember the Rambam does not mention this requirement to wait 72 hours in all cases before counting 7 Nekeim.

That is not entirely correct. A woman can't start the 7 clean days within 3 days from sex. its only a chumra if she did not have sex prior to bleeding.

3. The extra 5th day which was added by Ashkenazim (in case 72 hours which overlap the 4th day is bein hashmashot and therefore will require an additional 5th day is an additional gzera for a very rare situation.

correct, but I hope you realize that when something was paskened because of a geder its stronger then a regular psak. Although you may not like it the torah gives authority to rabbis to make gedarim.

To summarize : A nida today( whom by Tora law is only required to count a total of sever days with out any clean days

that is not correct. Since not all uterine blood renders a woman tomai. Hence she is a safek d'oraisa for at least six of the days.

or having to worry about when to start counting these days) is required medrabanan to observe the 7 clean days of Zava. Just in case there were relations just before becoming Nida and there was shfichat Zera which is Tamei for 72 hours one has to count 4 days (as it overlaps the 4th day) before starting to count the 7 clean days of Zava (for her Nida). Now if it is possible that is was bein hashmashot so we should add an additional day to the 72 hours and end up with 5 days.

Why does that bother you?

Since you don't like that comment that was made or dont feel comfortable it is necessary for you to make an accusation. Very typical Orthodox / Haredi defense. Why not also acuse the person making that comment of being reform/ apikores .....

Someone who does not believe in chazal is regarded as an apikores. At least if you accept the gemara as authentic judaism.

#23 TimeRebbe

TimeRebbe

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 2,140 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:42 PM

There are natural herbs for that...

Progesterone remedies such as Aygestin can be used to better regulate periods if there are problems
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#24 qgh

qgh

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:43 AM

That is not entirely correct. Only the 7th day is because of chumra d'rab zeira. All derabanans have to first be accepted by the masses. This is no different than any derabanan.


Depends how you undersand Hetkin Rav Yehuda Basadot (Rabi enacted in Sados) -- did he initially just enact for women in the Sados ,or did he enact for everyone becuase of the women in the Sados. Just looked at Steinsaltz he understands it as for the women who live in the Sados.
Either way in later generation the 7th day also added and was accepted by the masses. I am not questioning the validity of Rabi Zeira;s humra. It is halacha.

That is not entirely correct. A woman can't start the 7 clean days within 3 days from sex. its only a chumra if she did not have sex prior to bleeding.


Well there is a machloket on that. Seems to me that this is a humra that came later. Nidda 41b-42A does not clearly conclude that all women automatically will have plitat zeira and it does not say anywhere in the Gmara does it say that all women have to wait after relations any days before counting clean days because of the possibility of pitat Zera.
The Rambam understand this Gmara in Hilchot Terumot (I realize that some other Rishonim understood it differently than the Rambam)

הלכות תרומות פרק ז


ז המשמשת מיטתה--אם לא נתהפכה בשעת תשמיש--טובלת, ואוכלת בתרומה לערב; ואם נתהפכה בשעת תשמיש--הרי זו אסורה לאכול בתרומה כל שלושה ימים, שאי אפשר לה שלא תפלוט ותהיה טמאה כמו שיתבאר במקומו.

Interestingly in Hilchot Issurei Biah the Rambam clearly says that if she sees one day of blood she starts counting immediately the next day 7 nekeim. He does NOT even say that if she had relations prior to bleeding she have to wait 3 days. Clearly that is a possibility. He does say in the same chapter that if is she does see a plitat Zera it effects her count.




הלכות איסורי ביאה פרק יא


אם ראתה יום אחד, סופרת אחריו שבעה, וטובלת בליל שמיני שהוא ליל שני שלאחר ימי נידתה, ומותרת לבעלה.


Thus this is a humra (of waiting 4 or 5 days prior to counting nekeim) came later and was not agreed upon all Rishonim.
Now if she did not even have relations prior to bleeding it is an additional humra to this humra.


correct, but I hope you realize that when something was paskened because of a geder its stronger then a regular psak. Although you may not like it the torah gives authority to rabbis to make gedarim.


Correct. As above I am not arguing that we should not follow halachot drabanan. WE ARE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW HALACHA. I am voicing my opinion that I think we have added humrot on humrot and we went a little too far. I have voiced other problems with these humrot in other threads (these humrot have prevented some women from becoming pregnant which I believe is a major problem )

that is not correct. Since not all uterine blood renders a woman tomai. Hence she is a safek d'oraisa for at least six of the days.

Not all uterine blood renders a woman tomei. However in most cases we there is no reason to have a safek. Remember this humra was enacted because of women living in the fields.

Why does that bother you?

I am bothered by ridiculous humrot just as I am bothered by ridiculous or far-fetched kulot or kulot that are not connected with reality. As I have stated before I believe Rabinical Halacha is meant to be connected with reality and to be logical.
Besides the fact that it bothers me , I also believe it turns away many whom do believe and are looking for spirituality.

#25 Shaina

Shaina

    Resident Phlebotomist

  • Members
  • 3,423 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:45 PM

Can I just say how adorable it is to see newly married (and almost married) guys talking about hormonal and natural methods of regulating women's cycles? :biggrin:
Posted Image

#26 Rentsy

Rentsy

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 3,005 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:10 PM

http://www.yutorah.o...ate_(Aygestin®)
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה

#27 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

Kalashnikover_Rebbe

    fine, nice looking, batampte Ben Torah

  • Members
  • 26,049 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:20 PM

Can I just say how adorable it is to see newly married (and almost married) guys talking about hormonal and natural methods of regulating women's cycles? :biggrin:

Meh KR has been talking about this for as long as he could talk....
[/flirting]

#28 israeli4ever

israeli4ever

    Godol Hador

  • Members
  • 2,502 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:04 PM

Since you don't like that comment that was made or dont feel comfortable it is necessary for you to make an accusation. Very typical Orthodox / Haredi defense. Why not also acuse the person making that comment of being reform/ apikores .....

you're tarring with a veeery broad brush. And you couldn't possibly back up that obnoxious and uncalled for accusation if your life depended on it.
Disclaimer: The comments made by this poster do not necessarily represent an actual opinion, they are merely the latest output of an infinite amount of monkeys working on Shakespeare
________________________________



"Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!" - Razie

"If you don't sin... Jesus died for nothing."

"because teaching is all about obscuration and obfuscation.."
- Snag

#29 sal

sal

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 843 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:23 PM

Depends how you undersand Hetkin Rav Yehuda Basadot (Rabi enacted in Sados) -- did he initially just enact for women in the Sados ,or did he enact for everyone becuase of the women in the Sados. Just looked at Steinsaltz he understands it as for the women who live in the Sados.
Either way in later generation the 7th day also added and was accepted by the masses. I am not questioning the validity of Rabi Zeira;s humra. It is halacha.



Well there is a machloket on that. Seems to me that this is a humra that came later. Nidda 41b-42A does not clearly conclude that all women automatically will have plitat zeira and it does not say anywhere in the Gmara does it say that all women have to wait after relations any days before counting clean days because of the possibility of pitat Zera.
The Rambam understand this Gmara in Hilchot Terumot (I realize that some other Rishonim understood it differently than the Rambam)


Thus this is a humra (of waiting 4 or 5 days prior to counting nekeim) came later and was not agreed upon all Rishonim.
Now if she did not even have relations prior to bleeding it is an additional humra to this humra.

Correct. As above I am not arguing that we should not follow halachot drabanan. WE ARE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW HALACHA. I am voicing my opinion that I think we have added humrot on humrot and we went a little too far. I have voiced other problems with these humrot in other threads (these humrot have prevented some women from becoming pregnant which I believe is a major problem )

I don't understand why you think that pru urvu is any greater mitzva then lo sasor. Do you really believe that you have a greater sensitivity to this than the rema?
You seem to choose priorities based on convenience.
As far as I know there is a simple solution for one who can't become pregnant because of the five days. She may render herself tomai before her period by telling her husband that she is tomai. In that case she can start counting five days from that day and does not have to wait five days from the beginning of her period. Don't pasken from me A rov should be consulted about this.

Not all uterine blood renders a woman tomei. However in most cases we there is no reason to have a safek. Remember this humra was enacted because of women living in the fields.

This chumra is because we no longer can differentiate between the four shades of red that are tomai and the other shades of red that are tahor.

I am bothered by ridiculous humrot just as I am bothered by ridiculous or far-fetched kulot or kulot that are not connected with reality. As I have stated before I believe Rabinical Halacha is meant to be connected with reality and to be logical.
Besides the fact that it bothers me , I also believe it turns away many whom do believe and are looking for spirituality.


So you find chumras that the rabbis in the past thought necessary as ridiculous? You want me to agree with that? So the rabbis of the past found these gedarim and chumros necessay and connected with reality and you don't. Please tell me why I should take you seriously.
I'm not referring to the ones that you can argue that the circumstances changed with time. The 5 days nor 7 clean days has changed at all with time. They are no less relevant today then before.
It is because of this reason I disagree with you even on the chumras that you can argue that the circumstances are different. Since even when the circumstases are the same you argue that they were out of touch.

#30 qgh

qgh

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:22 PM

I don't understand why you think that pru urvu is any greater mitzva then lo sasor. Do you really believe that you have a greater sensitivity to this than the rema?
You seem to choose priorities based on convenience.
As far as I know there is a simple solution for one who can't become pregnant because of the five days. She may render herself tomai before her period by telling her husband that she is tomai. In that case she can start counting five days from that day and does not have to wait five days from the beginning of her period. Don't pasken from me A rov should be consulted about this.


I am not referring to the 5 days. (I was just pointing out that the 5 days are an extra humra on all the humrot we alrleady have) With regards to Pru Urvu I referring to the 7 clean days. The 7 clean days prevent some women who have short cylces from becoming pregnant because ovulation occurs before the 7 clean days are over. The Rema was not aware of this problem. The Mechaber was not aware of this either and neither was the Rambam or Hazal.
Since this problem was not known in the past there was no solution and they did not even know they needed a solution.
Today the solution is for these healthy and 100% fertile women to take hormones in order to change the natural cycle they have. This solution works to solve the problem as long as the woman know they have this problem. Are there risks with this medical solution? Who knows.

This chumra is because we no longer can differentiate between the four shades of red that are tomai and the other shades of red that are tahor.


This explanation came later. We do this humra because it has been done for almost 2000 years. In most cases when a woman has her normal period in the normal time there is no safek that she is Nida.


So you find chumras that the rabbis in the past thought necessary as ridiculous? You want me to agree with that? So the rabbis of the past found these gedarim and chumros necessay and connected with reality and you don't. Please tell me why I should take you seriously.
I'm not referring to the ones that you can argue that the circumstances changed with time. The 5 days nor 7 clean days has changed at all with time. They are no less relevant today then before.
It is because of this reason I disagree with you even on the chumras that you can argue that the circumstances are different. Since even when the circumstases are the same you argue that they were out of touch.


The reality has changed. As above we today understand what the physiology of the menstrual cycle and are aware that the 7 clean days is very problematic. I am quite sure that if Hazal would have been aware of this they would not have allowed this humra. I am saying this because of the respect I have for Hazal.

#31 Snag

Snag

    הבל יפצה פי

  • Banned
  • 11,108 posts

Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:41 PM

The reality has changed. As above we today understand what the physiology of the menstrual cycle and are aware that the 7 clean days is very problematic. I am quite sure that if Hazal would have been aware of this they would not have allowed this humra. I am saying this because of the respect I have for Hazal.

What if Chazal, the Rambam, and the Mechaber were alive today, you made them aware of the physiological realities, yet they maintained their position, regardless. Would your respect for them then fail?
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#32 qgh

qgh

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:09 PM

What if Chazal, the Rambam, and the Mechaber were alive today, you made them aware of the physiological realities, yet they maintained their position, regardless. Would your respect for them then fail?


Hard to answer a hypothetical question. I mean if the Rambam and Hazal were alive today would they pasken based on their method of paskening or would they pasken based on how todays Rabanim pasken? We don't know. I mean the Rambam paskened in a very different way than the Mechaber did and many later poskim did. Hazal argued based on logic as well as massoret. The Rambam as well as almost all other Rishonim took all the sources from Hazal and the Geonim and arrived at what they believed was the proper psak and the truth.
The Mechaber had a system of paskening based on how the RIF, Rambam and the Rosh pasekend and taking a majority opinon. He offcourse had exceptions to that rule. Very often the minhag that he saw was practiced in his area was what he paskened. This was very different than how the Rambam paskened. The poskim today see to follow a system that is closer to the Mechaber than the earlier poskim such as the Rambam.

#33 Red Hare

Red Hare

    When this old you are, look as good you will not !

  • Members
  • 5,238 posts

Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:10 PM

I thought that rabbonim COULD differentiate?
"There's a stroller called Phil and Ted's? Is that the kind for most excellent adventuresome babies?" Sweet

"I discovered that all the participating members here are 'black sheep' in their own circles. On Hashkafah.com, the mainstream is truly wacked." Silent J

"H.com becomes a proverbial Hotel California for many of us" Nooch

#34 sal

sal

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 843 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:57 PM

The reality has changed. As above we today understand what the physiology of the menstrual cycle and are aware that the 7 clean days is very problematic. I am quite sure that if Hazal would have been aware of this they would not have allowed this humra. I am saying this because of the respect I have for Hazal.

Or because you have respect for your opinion.

There are plenty of derabanans that we don't begin to understand. Eruv tavshilin, netilas yadayim and in hilchos tuma there are lots more.
If you don't understand those I see no reason to accept your reasons over hear either.

#35 qgh

qgh

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:11 AM

Or because you have respect for your opinion.


I don't understand what you mean. I am stating that in the past they did not understand the phsyiology of the menstrual cycle the way we do today. I don't think anyone would argue that.
They did not realize and were not aware that because of the 7 Nekeim some women won't be able to get pregnant.



There are plenty of derabanans that we don't begin to understand. Eruv tavshilin, netilas yadayim and in hilchos tuma there are lots more.
If you don't understand those I see no reason to accept your reasons over hear either.


We went thorught this before. When the Gmara tells us the reason behind Rabinical law , I see no reason to believe we don't understand it. I am not sure why you bring those examples. and what you are referring to . I would rather not change subjects but I do think we understand the reasons for some of the mitsvot you mention. I may not know everything (or the reason for every little detail) and I don't claim to know everything. All I am saying is that when a reason is given and it is logical we do understand it.
In the case of the 7 Nekeeim or the 5 days prior to the 7 Nekeeim we know the reason.

#36 sal

sal

    Gabbai

  • Members
  • 843 posts

Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

I don't understand what you mean. I am stating that in the past they did not understand the phsyiology of the menstrual cycle the way we do today. I don't think anyone would argue that.
They did not realize and were not aware that because of the 7 Nekeim some women won't be able to get pregnant.





We went thorught this before. When the Gmara tells us the reason behind Rabinical law , I see no reason to believe we don't understand it. I am not sure why you bring those examples. and what you are referring to . I would rather not change subjects but I do think we understand the reasons for some of the mitsvot you mention. I may not know everything (or the reason for every little detail) and I don't claim to know everything. All I am saying is that when a reason is given and it is logical we do understand it.
In the case of the 7 Nekeeim or the 5 days prior to the 7 Nekeeim we know the reason.


You misunderstood me. You seem to think had they known what we now know they would not have said that. Although I can't rule that out, I have no reason to think its true either. There are plenty of extreme examples where we see the rabbis really believed making sure that one person doesn't transgress by mistake is very important. I don't remember the case right now, but they disallowed a woman from getting married because maybe someone else will make a mistake.
They forbade shofar on shabos for that reason. Point is you don't take it as seriously as they do. So I see no reason to think that because you think something it therefor follows that the rabbis would have agreed.

#37 qgh

qgh

    Rebbe

  • Members
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:00 PM

You misunderstood me. You seem to think had they known what we now know they would not have said that. Although I can't rule that out, I have no reason to think its true either. There are plenty of extreme examples where we see the rabbis really believed making sure that one person doesn't transgress by mistake is very important. I don't remember the case right now, but they disallowed a woman from getting married because maybe someone else will make a mistake.
They forbade shofar on shabos for that reason. Point is you don't take it as seriously as they do. So I see no reason to think that because you think something it therefor follows that the rabbis would have agreed.

I don't for sure what they would say or wouldn't say. I can only go by what we have. I don't think Hazal generaly went to extremes. They were quite logical and clearly connected to reality. There may be cases where that is not clear. We may not always be aware of the situation that existed 2000 years ago and there may be some question marks. However the Gmara makes it very clear why something was done I believe that was the reason.
I do take the cocept of a fence seriously and I also have great respect for Hazal. That is the reason I believe they would not pasken rediculous humrot and would go to extremes when not necessary.

I replied to your example of shofar. In this case it is not clear that they forbade shofar on shabat for the reason mentioned in the Bavli. The Yerushalmi gives a different view and says it was not a mitsva to blow shofar on Shabat outside the Mikdash. Although we pasken by the Bavli we are not discussing the psak here (as the yerushalmi and bavli agree that you don't blow shofar on shabat) but rather the reason for not doing something and it may very well be that the Yerushalmi was correct. (It also happens to be more consistent with the Mishna in this case)




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users