When referring to someone who is great in Torah, do we call him a Talmud Chacham (fluent in the Talmud) or a Talmid Chacham (student of wisdom)?
I'd just like to get it straight.
Talmud or Talmid Chacham?
Started by
adiel
, Apr 04 2012 09:28 PM
4 replies to this topic
#1
adiel
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Gabbai
Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:28 PM
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Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!
What the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve. - Napoleon Hill
Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!
#2
Bezalel
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Stud muffin
Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:08 PM
Isn't chacham an adjective for "smart"? If so, then calling someone "Talmud chacham" means that he's a smart book (instead of being a person). The correct term would be "Talmid chacham," a smart student.
#3
Rentsy
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Godol Hador
Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:36 AM
No. A "Chacham" is someone who is wise. A "Talmid Chacham" is the student of someoen who is wise. It's the difference between Talmidei Chachamim and Chachamim. It's a more modest claim to be a student.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב
העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת
הלכה ג
אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה
העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת
הלכה ג
אהבה גדולה יתרה רבה עזה עד מאד, עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת השם ... וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה
#4
Snag
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הבל יפצה פי
Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:39 AM
Its talmid chacham. As Rentsy points out, it's more modest, as well as cognizant of the immensity of wisdom. Compare and contrast the Greek reference of their wise men as "philosophers", lovers of wisdom.No. A "Chacham" is someone who is wise. A "Talmid Chacham" is the student of someoen who is wise. It's the difference between Talmidei Chachamim and Chachamim. It's a more modest claim to be a student.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."
"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."
-Mark Twain
"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."
-Mark Twain
#5
Pure Myrrh
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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:07 PM
When referring to someone who is great in Torah, do we call him a Talmud Chacham (fluent in the Talmud) or a Talmid Chacham (student of wisdom)?
I'd just like to get it straight.
Talmid.
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