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Do Jews Believe in Hell?


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#81 ijs

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:19 PM

If you think time exists without light.


Of course it does. Consider blind people, for example. Time – that is, an ordered succession of events – exists independently of the human ability to perceive it.

Besides, light is irrelevant to time. Ever hear music? It doesn't depend on light, but sound (which moves much more slowly, by the way – a function of time). Music is defined as repetition and contrast – concepts that exist without light, but not without time, for without time you cannot have repetition.

I read it.


Passive-aggressive claptrap.
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#82 spectra

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:26 PM

Of course it does. Consider blind people, for example. Time – that is, an ordered succession of events – exists independently of the human ability to perceive it.

Besides, light is irrelevant to time. Ever hear music? It doesn't depend on light, but sound (which moves much more slowly, by the way – a function of time). Music is defined as repetition and contrast – concepts that exist without light, but not without time, for without time you cannot have repetition.


Passive-aggressive claptrap.


I feel bad for blind people, it makes me sad.

Sound, Words and Light all came together, a harmony and God said that it was good.

I don't know what that means.

#83 Templar

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:17 PM

If you think time exists without light. I guess you could lock yourself in a pitch black room and count real fast to keep track of time. I think that would get old in a hurry. Here is a little trick for you, if you say 1 mississppi, 2 mississippi it paces the seconds for you, unless you want to count in milli-seconds.


I read it.

You don't think that time exists without light? How do you arrive at that?

#84 spectra

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:54 PM

You don't think that time exists without light? How do you arrive at that?


You can have time without light if you want it, it is all yours. If you want a taste of it then track time in that pitch black room with IJS. Get back to me in a couple of years...Don't lose count.

If you say darkness has pre-eminence over God's word, light. Then you make your stand in darkness.

#85 ijs

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:55 AM

I don't know what that means.


It means that you never answered the question, but presumed that everyone understood what you were talking about.

If you say darkness has pre-eminence over God's word, light. Then you make your stand in darkness.


This makes no sense in light ( ;) ) of the issue. The idea that this has anything to do with darkness versus light is linguistic legerdemain on your part to say the very least. The subject was whether time came before light; darkness doesn't enter into it. But if you want to go there...

1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. 2. Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.


If we read this in order – and “order” implies time:

1. Time (verse 1)
2. Heavens and Earth (verse 1)
3. Darkness and Deep (verse 2)
4. Water (verse 2)
5. Light (verse 3)

According to this order, light was fifth, not first. Actually seventh, since heavens and earth tied for second, and darkness and deep tied for third. (This also assumes that “deep” and “water” are not the same thing, given that a different word was used.) The difference is that, with light, it was G-d's first recorded utterance, which isn't the same as saying it was the first thing created.
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#86 spectra

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:10 AM

It means that you never answered the question, but presumed that everyone understood what you were talking about.


This makes no sense in light ( ;) ) of the issue. The idea that this has anything to do with darkness versus light is linguistic legerdemain on your part to say the very least. The subject was whether time came before light; darkness doesn't enter into it. But if you want to go there...


If we read this in order – and “order” implies time:

1. Time (verse 1)
2. Heavens and Earth (verse 1)
3. Darkness and Deep (verse 2)
4. Water (verse 2)
5. Light (verse 3)

According to this order, light was fifth, not first. Actually seventh, since heavens and earth tied for second, and darkness and deep tied for third. (This also assumes that “deep” and “water” are not the same thing, given that a different word was used.) The difference is that, with light, it was G-d's first recorded utterance, which isn't the same as saying it was the first thing created.


I said that heaven and earth is created first and that a true beginning cannot exist without God. I spoke of first light, which came from God's word, preceeding light from sun, moon and stars. If you say that time begins with your intellectual awareness and you say that existed before God spoke. Then take a look at another beginning that was offered by the serpent. The serpent offered the woman a beginning in the form of so called intellectual brilliance, light, in the absence of God and in opposition to God's words. The serpent claimed to be the light in opposition to God and made claim of another beginning for the woman. An eclipse.

If you say that the beginning of time is by your intellectual awareness, preceeding God's word. Then you claim a beginning without God. Does your intellect, apart from God shed light in the beginning. Do you claim to be light and brilliance that is greater than God. That is why I gave you a test, to lock yourself in a pitch black room and track time with your mathematical genuis. Can you light up that room with your intellect. That is what the serpent promised.

God created the darkness as well. God did not make mention of creating the backdrop of darkness in the beginning. God tells us that later on in scripture. The focus is God going forth and shining first light on creation, which is what the serpent mocked, offering first light in the form of independant of God personal intellect to the woman. That is why I said; a true beginning cannot exist without God. The serpent said it could, the serpent said that she would surely not die. A coffin is a pitch black room.

If you say time existed in darkness, before God revealed first light. Can you predict the time of the true first light shining, by your counting time with your mathematical genuis. No one knows the day or the hour, but God Himself. God owns the day. You say time existed in darkness before God spoke and light shined. If that is your pre-eminence, you are free to choose that. If you choose darkness as pre-eminence, darkness disappears in the face of true light. You say it was all invented, manufactured, it is way more personal than that. The serpent manufactured a lie.

Do you think that you are the top of the food chain. God told Adam to go grow his own food after the sin. Go talk to Joseph and his brothers about the top of the food chain. Talk to David as God made him ready to face Goliath. David said that God delivered him as he faced bears and lions while guarding the sheep.

#87 Templar

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:59 AM

You can have time without light if you want it, it is all yours. If you want a taste of it then track time in that pitch black room with IJS. Get back to me in a couple of years...Don't lose count.


Uh...am I missing something here? The majority of the universe is composed of Dark Matter... http://en.wikipedia....iki/Dark_matter
So by your logic, time doesn't exist in 84% of the universe.

#88 spectra

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:28 PM

Uh...am I missing something here? The majority of the universe is composed of Dark Matter... http://en.wikipedia....iki/Dark_matter
So by your logic, time doesn't exist in 84% of the universe.


We are talking about the beginning of time. It says the earth was null and void as it stood in darkness

#89 israeli4ever

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:31 AM

So we're back to the original question: if Moses wrote it, how it is that it recounts his death? I'm interested in the explanation that has Joshua writing the last eight verses of Devarim; that kind of makes the all the pieces fall into place. Do you have any more information about it?

http://www.aish.com/...html?mobile=yes
http://dovbear.blogs...m-of-torah.html
Disclaimer: The comments made by this poster do not necessarily represent an actual opinion, they are merely the latest output of an infinite amount of monkeys working on Shakespeare
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#90 jamal

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:34 PM

Whats interesting is that theres a little orange button next to the topic 'do jews believe in hell' that says 'hot topic'.




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