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Listening to Shiurim: Does it Count as Torah Learning?

shiruim torah hashkafah learning torah

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23 replies to this topic

#1 adiel

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:51 PM

I've been bugged about this for a while as I listen to a lot of shiurim during my day of work either on the office PC or via bluetooth on my phone.

Does listening to shiurim count as learning Torah or is it considered as 'hirhurim' (thoughts)?

Some other items to add to the equation:

1) there is a halacha that if one wakes in the middle of the night he is allowed to think in Torah thoughts without making birchas hatorah. if it was considered to be 'learning' we should have to make a bracha!

2) In many sources, learning is counted when a person is actually vocalizing the words. a person isn't being vocal when listening.

I have no idea about this. Let me know what u think/know.
We are the music makers , and we are the dreamers of the dreams. - Willy Wonka

What the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve. - Napoleon Hill

Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!

#2 Guest_halevy_*

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:12 PM

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#3 adiel

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 10:28 PM

I hope some of our more learned members will be able to clarify this subject.


I appreciate your response and hope that you benefit from this site as you have from others.

Whats interesting is shortly after I wrote this post, a new member signed up and spammed (was removed) his own site which actually had a source to answer my question:

This links (#3) to this.
We are the music makers , and we are the dreamers of the dreams. - Willy Wonka

What the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve. - Napoleon Hill

Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!

#4 Red Hare

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:55 PM

ohhhhhhhhh
"There's a stroller called Phil and Ted's? Is that the kind for most excellent adventuresome babies?" Sweet

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#5 Pinchas

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:40 AM

ahh

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#6 SUMMERSUP

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

I didnt see the answer from those links, if listening to shiurim online etc is actually considered a mitzvah. I intrisically believe that it would/should be. I just started listing online to shiurim at work.

As a side note: while listing to shiurim online is great. I have time to listen to many..I'm scared that I will lose/forget the words of one shuir but i have the urge to listen to more (like 3 everyday).

Do you think its wise to limit myself to 1 shuir per day and let it sink in? or listen to a bunch?
Im mainly looking at shiur about shalom bayis...and lets face it i wouldn't be able to implement the techniques discussed in a single shiur for a least a week.

I want them to have lasting impressions.. Is it better to listen to 1 per day/ week? or Should i just keep at 3 a day.

#7 Dan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:43 PM

See this teshuva:
http://hebrewbooks.o...6&st=&pgnum=174

starts on the bottom of the page

also this one:
http://hebrewbooks.o...82&st=&pgnum=90

כלל זה יהא נקוט בידך: מי שאינו רואה את המקום [=ה'] בכל מקום, אינו רואה בשום מקום
איפה נמצא אלוקים? בכל מקום שנותנים לו להיכנס
-Kotzker

נישט אלעס וואס מען טראכט דארף מען זאגען, נישט אלעס וואס מען זאגט דארף מען שרייבען, נישט אלעס וואס מען שרייבט דארף מען דרוקען און נישט אלעס וואס מען דרוקט דארף מען ליינען!
-R' Salanter

יש בן חורין שרוחו רוח של עבד, ויש עבד שרוחו מלאה חירות; הנאמן לעצמיותו בן חורין הוא, ומי שכל חייו הם רק במה שטוב ויפה בעיני אחרים הוא עבד
-R' Kook

#8 SUMMERSUP

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

Ahh.. Translation pleasee?

#9 BLUERIVER

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:17 PM

I've been bugged about this for a while as I listen to a lot of shiurim during my day of work either on the office PC or via bluetooth on my phone.

Does listening to shiurim count as learning Torah or is it considered as 'hirhurim' (thoughts)?

Some other items to add to the equation:

1) there is a halacha that if one wakes in the middle of the night he is allowed to think in Torah thoughts without making birchas hatorah. if it was considered to be 'learning' we should have to make a bracha!

2) In many sources, learning is counted when a person is actually vocalizing the words. a person isn't being vocal when listening.

I have no idea about this. Let me know what u think/know.


The short answer is that there are differences of opinion among major halachic authorities regarding this point, and in general Ashkenazim should be careful to recite birkas hatorah before [even] thinking words of torah, while Sepharadim would be ok relying on their authorities that consider it permissible to think torah without making the brochos.

See this teshuva:
http://hebrewbooks.o...6&st=&pgnum=174

starts on the bottom of the page

also this one:
http://hebrewbooks.o...82&st=&pgnum=90


He makes some good points to be sure, but some of the points he makes are not so simple, particularly with regard to learning by listening to a recorded shiur, which most certainly (in at least a number of ways) IS definitely considered study of torah.
Oderint dum metuant.
So much wasted time, confusing motion with accomplishment.

#10 david9

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:29 AM

I love listening to all Jewsih learning online, videos especially, since there is no yeshiva or shul in my city where I live. so that is the only way for me to learn.

I wish I could have a real, live teacher, and friend to study with, but Hashem will provide when the time comes...

In the meanwhile I love Torahanytime.com, chabad. org, torahcafe.com, Koshertube.com and similar.

Keep well guys and G-d bless

#11 Rivka5768

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:13 AM

I wish I could have a real, live teacher, and friend to study with, but Hashem will provide when the time comes...


I know how you feel :) I am Christian born but all the Jesus talk irritated me. So I'm trying to learn the real story. I mean, I can do the research myself but I want to talk about it. lol. Btw what's a Hashem?

#12 Rivka5768

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:17 AM

I don't know the halachah about this matter, but I can surely tell you that 90% of the scarce knowledge of Torah I have today was obtained from reading in Orthodox websites and listening/ viewing Internet mp3/ video lectures.

I do have Torah classes with a "real" Orthodox Rabbi once a week, participating in a study group comprised by men of different life paths and observance levels, but the knowledge I have acquired by means of the virtual classes is a huge amount of good quality information.

If that is not considered to be "learning Torah", well, I just don't know how it should be called.

I would obviously prefer to have real-life Torah classes everyday, however this is not possible at the moment, for several practical reasons. The virtual lectures are a valuable source; most of my Internet time is actually spent learning from wonderful sites such as Chabad.org, Aish.com, Torahanytime.org, divineinformation.com and many other excellent sources. A good shiur (even a "virtual" one...) is refreshing for my soul.

I hope some of our more learned members will be able to clarify this subject.


Perhaps that's why it's been nearly impossible to learn. Is jewish teaching scarce? What's going on here?

#13 Guest_halevy_*

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:08 AM

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#14 warren

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:40 AM

Rivka, I'd recommend basic stuff, and anything that purports to give you the truth (emet means truth), run from. It's the Jewish version of that Jesus stuff. I mean, look at that site, "a short movie about the movie 9"? If they start playing number games, run. Proof of God? Can't be done, or at least God hasn't shared one of those with us yet. What happens is people think that they need to have faith not just in God, but in the proofs. It causes damage to the intellect.

<. <!-- . id="ytplayer" class="EmbeddedVideo" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://youtube.com/embed/LVf5Cr4M-F8?html5=1&fs=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen /><. -->>

Divine information? Give me a break. Rabbi Mizrachi is certifiable.

I can't recommend a sane introductory site but perhaps someone can. Or maybe the people who look to draw in beginners tend to be soft in the head to start. Skip the videos. They are brain rotting.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#15 Guest_halevy_*

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:40 AM

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#16 warren

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 01:39 AM

Huh? [scratching my head]



- Why would I "give you a break"? I don't want to!!!
- What's the problem with Rav Mizrachi?
- Why is he "certifiable"?



- Do you have any rational explanation for your statements above?
- Why skip the videos? Why not letting Rivka watch them and arrive to her own conclusions?
- Why are those videos "brain rotting"? You seem a bit confused... sorry if I misinterpret you somehow, but your responses look like a random collection of rants. If you wish to discuss any of these matters, please be specific and stay on topic. Thanks...

OK, tell us about the rationality of the proof of God from the number nine. About Mizrachi, see here, here, and follow links from the latter thread. Do you believe that autistics are prophets? That it's possible to know why God let Leiby Kletzky be murdered, or why it happened in Boro Park rather than somewhere else? Mizrachi claims to know.

By the way, do you have a rabbi, or is all of your knowledge about Judaism from websites? If you do have a rabbi, do you discuss these sites with him?
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"

#17 Rivka5768

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:51 PM

Jewish sources on the Internet are so vaste today, that a normal person could spend 7 lives in front of the computer and still leave out many interesting Torah lectures on virtually every subject one would wish to learn.

If you're really interested in the subject and would like to invest some hours, I'd suggest you to pick some beginners' stuff such as:

www.emet9.org

www.divineinformation.com (highlights: the debate with the pastor, the first films of the "divine information" series, the "Torah and Science" series).

Enjoy!!

BTW: HaShem means literally "The Name", and this term is frequently used to refer to G-d in conversations or written texts. We're forbidden to pronounce G-d's name unless we're praying, as the Commandment states "not to utter G-d's name in vain" - this is a serious transgression. And the name known as "Tetragrammaton" composed by the Hebrew letters Yud, Hey, Vav and Hey is not read as such but replaced with "Ado- nai".


Wow thank you! That's amazing, I have never heard that before. The Bible 10 Commandments say not to utter the lords name in vain, but you know...they believe his name is Jesus Christ. :\ so that never did much for me. In fact I stopped paying attention to them when I was little because when I asked the simple question of "If we believe in ONE G-d then why are we worshiping a man?"

"BECAUSE JESUS IS THE SON OF G-D" (Or you hear that he is G-d in a flesh. I guess he's a wizard heh.)

"Yea but..."

And then after the second question you're basically going to hell. :) Again thanks, this is exciting.

#18 ShimonB529

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

theres a much more pashut answer to this question - it is clear that up until the times of the "chatimat hagemara," all Torah learning was done orally, so either one says that only the Rav giving shiur got schar for being mikayim the mitzvah or....
The entire approach of whether one is mechayav a bracha or not is a very roundabout and flawed method - the fact that halacha might not be mechayav you to make a bracha because theres no "מעשה מצוה" doesnt seem relevant...

#19 adiel

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

You're right. there is a LOT on this topic. someone told me that it's a machlokes and the GR"A holds that thinking in learning actually counts in learning. So if one is listening to a shiur and understanding the material, then it counts as learning.

I don't have a source for this. But I heard that when it comes to Torah she'bksav - one is yotzei learning if he is reading the text even though he doesn't understand the material. But by Torah she'baal peh - one is NOT yotzei even if they were reading it UNLESS they are understanding what they are saying. So kavana on the material plays a big part on the topic of learning - and it makes sense that if one were to listen to a shiur that they would be yotzei if they understood the material and not saying the words.
We are the music makers , and we are the dreamers of the dreams. - Willy Wonka

What the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve. - Napoleon Hill

Frumkeit without Mentchlichkeit is not Yiddishkeit!

#20 Snag

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:46 PM

You're right. there is a LOT on this topic. someone told me that it's a machlokes and the GR"A holds that thinking in learning actually counts in learning. So if one is listening to a shiur and understanding the material, then it counts as learning.

I don't have a source for this. But I heard that when it comes to Torah she'bksav - one is yotzei learning if he is reading the text even though he doesn't understand the material. But by Torah she'baal peh - one is NOT yotzei even if they were reading it UNLESS they are understanding what they are saying. So kavana on the material plays a big part on the topic of learning - and it makes sense that if one were to listen to a shiur that they would be yotzei if they understood the material and not saying the words.

The source is in the Shulchan Aruch Hagraz, Hilchos Talmud Torah. I can get you the exact perek and din, if necessary. It should be noted that his position on this is not unanimously accepted
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

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