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German court's decision to ban circumc...

Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 26 Jul 2012

Circumcision is hardly 'bodily harm' any more than is tonsillectomy or appendectomy.


How is male circumcision any less bodily harm than female circumcision.
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Yudi's Photo Yudi 31 Jul 2012

How is male circumcision any less bodily harm than female circumcision.


Female ‘circumcision’ is mutilation, aka female genital mutilation (FGM), and for no health benefits and not even sanctioned by any religion – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are
Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy);
Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and
Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood—the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.
Type IV. These range from a symbolic pricking or piercing of the clitoris or labia, to cauterization of the clitoris, cutting into the vagina to widen it (gishiri cutting), and introducing corrosive substances to tighten it.



Male circumcision, on the other hand, besides being a religious rite and commandment, also has wonderful health benefits - see
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-misguided-push-to-ban-circumcision/2012/07/25/gJQAuY2x9W_story.html


As it happens, circumcision will be much discussed at this week’s International AIDS Conference in Washington, because the procedure can help prevent the spread of HIV. Studies in Africa show that it reduces the risk of heterosexual transmission by up to 60 percent.

The World Health Organization and UNAIDS have recommended
more voluntary circumcisions in 14 African countries with high rates of HIV infection. Achieving 80 percent compliance among 15- to 49-year-olds could avert 3.4  million new infections. This is an ambitious goal. We hope the conflict and uncertainty being sown in Europe do not make it even harder to achieve.
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 31 Jul 2012

Female ‘circumcision’ is mutilation, aka female genital mutilation (FGM)


Male circumcision is also mutilation.
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sal's Photo sal 31 Jul 2012

Male circumcision is also mutilation.


And so is ear piercing.
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 31 Jul 2012

And so is ear piercing.


Piercing the earlobe does not lessen the functioning of the ear.
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israeli4ever's Photo israeli4ever 31 Jul 2012

I think that the reason this is unlikely to ever be resolved is because of a very fundamental disagreement that is unlikely to be bridged.
I think that everyone agrees that some sort of mutilation is allowed, provided that the positives outweigh the negatives. Would anyone argue that a child born with an extra finger should not be operated on until they are old enough to decide? (No, I am not saying that they are the same, but that we would agree to the "forced" "mutilation" given a sufficient benefit)
The religious proponents of milah would argue that there is a great benefit to fulfilling this fundamental mitzvah, and at worst, minimal harm.
The non-religious see NO benefit (depending on whether you accept the current medical opinions), and as such any negative is sufficient to forbid, or at least come out against, milah.

Until and unless the non-religious either change their view, or are willing to tolerate the religious view (whether they should or not is a different discussion), I don't see how this disagreement can ever be settled.
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sal's Photo sal 31 Jul 2012

Piercing the earlobe does not lessen the functioning of the ear.


Circumcision is an improvement.
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 01 Aug 2012

Circumcision is an improvement.


I know this is an emotionally difficult subject.
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Pinchas's Photo Pinchas 01 Aug 2012

I know this is an emotionally difficult subject.


Well unless you were an circumcised man who later in life became circumcised you'd have no way to know for sure... right?
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paganyid's Photo paganyid 01 Aug 2012

I think this is what Shoshi is trying to say: "The only truth I have ever known is the orgasm. There is no truth that is of equal significance particularly in light of the fact that all truth is subjective. If someone tried to mess with THAT truth of mine or otherwise diminish it, it would be the cruelest sort of abuse man can visit upon man, an injustice without equal. No punishment for that person would be sufficient."
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israeli4ever's Photo israeli4ever 01 Aug 2012

I think this is what Shoshi is trying to say: "The only truth I have ever known is the orgasm. There is no truth that is of equal significance particularly in light of the fact that all truth is subjective. If someone tried to mess with THAT truth of mine or otherwise diminish it, it would be the cruelest sort of abuse man can visit upon man, an injustice without equal. No punishment for that person would be sufficient."

:thumbsup:
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Pinchas's Photo Pinchas 02 Aug 2012

I too think paganyid makes an excellent point.
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 02 Aug 2012

I think this is what Shoshi is trying to say: "The only truth I have ever known is the orgasm. There is no truth that is of equal significance particularly in light of the fact that all truth is subjective. If someone tried to mess with THAT truth of mine or otherwise diminish it, it would be the cruelest sort of abuse man can visit upon man, an injustice without equal. No punishment for that person would be sufficient."


Huh?
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Yudi's Photo Yudi 02 Aug 2012

Male circumcision is also mutilation.


Mutilation = to injure by tearing or cutting off a limb or essential part - from the dictionary.

Cutting off a penis is mutilation! Cutting off the foreskin, while some may call it mutilation, is not in the same category.
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paganyid's Photo paganyid 02 Aug 2012

Huh?

OK... I'll start slow...
You don't believe in objective truth. Or at least you say you don't. Orthodox Jews DO believe in objective truth. Is that OK or not OK in your eyes that a person believes in objective truth?
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 02 Aug 2012

OK... I'll start slow...
You don't believe in objective truth. Or at least you say you don't. Orthodox Jews DO believe in objective truth. Is that OK or not OK in your eyes that a person believes in objective truth?


I have to repeat myself: huh?
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paganyid's Photo paganyid 02 Aug 2012

Please tell me you've thought about morals before having an opinion on morals...

You don't believe that an objective truth exists.
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 03 Aug 2012

You don't believe that an objective truth exists.


FYI: The word objective refers to facts, not morals or values.
Facts are what I am speaking about.
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sal's Photo sal 03 Aug 2012

FYI: The word objective refers to facts, not morals or values.
Facts are what I am speaking about.


Circumcision for a jew is an improvement is a fact.
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Shoshi's Photo Shoshi 03 Aug 2012

Circumcision for a jew is an improvement is a fact.


How is it an improvement?
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