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Jewish identity mythbuster racist appartheid race nation Jewish constitution

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#1 Guest_halevy_*

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:51 PM

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#2 sal

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:02 PM

Very well said. Thank you.

#3 mroof

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:28 AM

Thank you for posting this: I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. :(
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#4 Pinchas

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:02 AM

I think I'd like a thread about posting pictures of Jews... maybe we should start one...

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#5 Guest_halevy_*

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

I think I'd like a thread about posting pictures of Jews... maybe we should start one...



For sure it would be a good idea. I suggest you to start a new thread with this purpose - we're in for some fun!!

However, the original intention of this specific thread was to shake a bit the ground under the Jew haters' feet - and also to provoke some thoughts from those who don't actually hate us but continuously complain about how closed-minded we are, how we despise this or that ethnic group or race, how we discriminate those who think different from us, how we have created an "exclusive" or "VIP" club where no-one can penetrate - and many other typical rantings.

Whoever wants to join our Nation out of pure love of G-d and to serve Him with joy is welcome. Those who have other things in mind, or aim at any material benefit from converting, had better think twice about it, as G-d knows our intentions and rewards us according to them (in this world and in the next one also).

#6 Templar

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:14 PM

how we have created an "exclusive" or "VIP" club where no-one can penetrate - and many other typical rantings.

The requirments to get into your 'VIP club' are not so much exclusive as strange. I was discussing Jewish ideas about the afterlife with another member, and he told me that while Christians are ineligible for the Jewish Heaven because of their belief in the Trinity, Atheists have a chance to get there because they don't believe in a 'polytheistic' religon---never mind the fact they don't believe in your God either.

Listen, I understand why you believe that Christians cannot attain Heaven; but for Jews to turn around and say that God-despising Atheists are eligible for God's Kingdom just strikes me as legalistic.





Whoever wants to join our Nation out of pure love of G-d and to serve Him with joy is welcome.

...Or, if you want to become an Atheist out of pure hatred of God, He'd apparently be just as happy.

Those who have other things in mind, or aim at any material benefit from converting,

I agree with this. Converting to a religon for material gain is like selling your soul for profit.



had better think twice about your nation to serve God? Wouldn't He be just as happy if I became an atheist?
it, as G-d knows our intentions and rewards us according to them (in this world and in the next one also).

Indeed. But that being said, I've been given to understand that the stakes are pretty low for sinful Jews---a maximum of twelve months in Gehinom, and then on to Hashem's Kingdom. That kind of takes some of the menace out of Yahw/h's judgment, doesn't it?

#7 ijs

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:12 PM

I was discussing Jewish ideas about the afterlife with another member, and he told me that while Christians are ineligible for the Jewish Heaven because of their belief in the Trinity, Atheists have a chance to get there because they don't believe in a 'polytheistic' religon---never mind the fact they don't believe in your God either.


Eh ... sort of. It is a matter of dispute in the orthodox community whether Xianity is polytheistic/idolatrous or not. I think it is. However, I’m not the only one with an opinion by any means. And not all Xians believe in the Trinity as a reality, but as a metaphor similar to the kinds of metaphors Jews use in some of the Writings in the Tanakh (e.g., Tehillim, IIRC). Others pray to and worship jesus, though. Given the differing beliefs, it simply isn’t clear, and it may not be appropriate to lump all Xians together.

Listen, I understand why you believe that Christians cannot attain Heaven; but for Jews to turn around and say that God-despising Atheists are eligible for God's Kingdom just strikes me as legalistic.


“Legalistic” merely means following the law. If that’s what the law is, then that’s what it is. However, again – as I understand it – atheists might be perceived as worshipping something (though obviously not using that word, mostly), and since they don’t believe in G-d then they would be committing idolatry as well.

Then (yet) again ... the requirement of the Noachide Laws, IIRC, is to not commit idolatry, rather than to worship HaShem. If the atheist truly worships nothing, then he is not committing idolatry, whereas in contrast the Xian is by virtue of his worship of a Trinity (for those that do so, that is). So it’s not that strange if you take a few minutes to think about it.

I've been given to understand that the stakes are pretty low for sinful Jews---a maximum of twelve months in Gehinom, and then on to Hashem's Kingdom. That kind of takes some of the menace out of Yahw/h's judgment, doesn't it?


I don’t know enough about this one, but my understanding is that 12 months is the maximum for anyone – though I know there are exceptions, so I am almost certainly mistaken and lacking in understanding of the details. Anyone else have something on this?
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#8 33948

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:47 PM

There are no ethnic requirements to be a nation anymore except for among Jews and Israel. Having Swiss parents, grandparents etc. makes no difference in whether you are Swiss or not. There is no presumption of being Swiss simply because your parents are. For a person to become Swiss they simply need to be born in Switzerland and under their jurisdiction. Of course white nationalists may disagree with such a definition, but this is the common one. To be an American all a person has to do is cross a fence. There are no requirements at all.

Probably more fitting is to say that Jews are an ethnic community. At the same time Jews are often the greatest source of criticism of other ethnic identities i.e. a non-Jewish white person with an ethnic affiliation is a horrible racist, evil etc.

Black people are not typically accepted as "real Jews" in most Jewish communities. Even the state of Israel has rejected the Jewishness of some black Jews. A person can practice Judaism, even have Jewish lineage and not be considered "real Jews" by mainstream Judaism.

Of course to say that "Jews are not racist" is a generalization.

When one wants to become a Jew for material gain he is told he is converting to a religion. It's not a religion, but a "nation". I suppose maybe this nation is intolerant of diversity, multiculturalism, other religions etc. within its ranks, while pushing such tolerance on non-Jewish communities in many situations. Yet, since many Jews are non-religious, atheist etc. I don't see why a person can't become a Jew for non-religious reasons.

#9 ijs

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:01 PM

There are no ethnic requirements to be a nation anymore except for among Jews and Israel.


There aren’t any there, either. Judaism is not an ethnicity, because people of all races are Jews. Europeans, Middle-Easterners, black Africans; Asians, Spaniards & Hispanics & Italians, &c. You’re conflating the terms “nation” on the ond hand, and “country” or “state” on the other. Certainly, they may be the same in a given case, but conflation is not necessary. Jews were a nation before the modern state of Israel existed – or any other state.

Black people are not typically accepted as "real Jews" in most Jewish communities. Even the state of Israel has rejected the Jewishness of some black Jews. A person can practice Judaism, even have Jewish lineage and not be considered "real Jews" by mainstream Judaism.


This is because their status as Jews could not be verified. But some have been, and today’s conclusions may prove wrong tomorrow.

When one wants to become a Jew for material gain he is told he is converting to a religion.


Maybe that’s what you were told, but it’s not as simple as that. You simply cannot join the community – whether called “religion” or “nation” – for improper motives, and material gain is an improper motive. A Jew’s purpose in life is to serve G-d. Your purpose – at least, as you have previously represented – is to gain material and social advantages for you and your children. This is a nation with (basically) a common religion; it is not a country club.

It's not a religion, but a "nation". I suppose maybe this nation is intolerant of diversity, multiculturalism, other religions etc. within its ranks, while pushing such tolerance on non-Jewish communities in many situations.


This is so wrong it would take too long to explain. Suffice it for the moment to say you do not understand Judaism. Perhaps with a couple years of study or so. And if you truly wish to convert, that’s what it would take, and there’s no reason you cannot start today. Go to gottorah.com & see about finding a study partner. (If the site is still there – I haven’t checked in a while. If not, let me know & I can find another site.)

Yet, since many Jews are non-religious, atheist etc. I don't see why a person can't become a Jew for non-religious reasons.


A person is indeed born into the Jewish nation. What each chooses to do, however, is a matter of free will, but each still has the obligations to G-d that all Jews are tasked with. You do not have those obligations; yours are limited to the Noachide Laws, unless you should (genuinely) convert. But once a Jew, always a Jew, and you cannot go back (from a spiritual perspective, that is – your free will is not removed by any means). But perhaps your neshama is not Jewish....
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#10 33948

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:15 PM

If a Jew's purpose in life is to serve G-d then why are half of all Jews atheists or agnostic? Every other statement contradicts another one. It doesn't take years of study to understand such contradictions.

So it is a nation where a person who converts is subjected to strict standards, yet someone born into it has no requirements at all other than ancestry?

I think if Judaism was about morality then it would focus on helping other people, enriching the world etc. rather the majority of efforts by Jewish groups are simply to enrich other Jews, protect Jewish identity and to increase their own wealth and power. It seems my motives would be in keeping with the behavior of Jews and Jewish organizations.

For example, if I want to worship G-d, help others, do good deeds etc. I would be hard pressed to find a venue for this behavior in existing Jewish groups and synagogues. Their only concern is helping each other, perpetuating Jewish identity etc. A lot of times in order to do this they lie, cheat, steal, harm other people, attack others and so on.

It all seems like a wolf in sheeps clothing. The way it represents itself (about g-d, love, helping others) and the way it really is (enrich itself, help others based on blood relation etc.) is totally different. I suppose when I become cunning enough to lie about my motives maybe I'll be good enough for Judaism. But you're right, I don't have such a Jewish soul. I like to leave the world a better place than what I found it.

I would say most Christian churches are not far behind Judaism in that they are similar in many ways. Yet anyone can join a Christian church if they so wish. It isn't quite as extreme in its hypocrisy.

Yes there are also many Jewish groups, synagogues etc. that truly are about helping others, self improvement etc. but they don't represent the majority, nor do they represent the zionist agenda.

#11 ijs

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:38 PM

If a Jew's purpose in life is to serve G-d then why are half of all Jews atheists or agnostic?


They’re not fulfilling that purpose. Do you not know there is a distinction between what people do and what they’re supposed to do?

So it is a nation where a person who converts is subjected to strict standards, yet someone born into it has no requirements at all other than ancestry?


You’re still making stuff up out of hatred – or something. Those born into it have the same requirements. But they can no more be forced on them than a convert who abandons everything.

I think if Judaism....


While it is about morality (as part of serving HaShem), what you think about it doesn’t change what it is or what Jews are supposed to do.

[I]f I want to worship G-d, help others, do good deeds etc. I would be hard pressed to find a venue for this behavior in existing Jewish groups and synagogues. Their only concern is helping each other....


Why is helping other Jews not helping others or doing good deeds? Because it doesn’t meet your standard of what Jews should be? That’s not up to you, and none of this is about you. But it is the basis of your antisemitic claptrap.
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#12 mroof

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:43 PM

The requirements to get into your 'VIP club' are not so much exclusive as strange. I was discussing Jewish ideas about the afterlife with another member, and he told me that while Christians are ineligible for the Jewish Heaven because of their belief in the Trinity, Atheists have a chance to get there because they don't believe in a 'polytheistic' religion---never mind the fact they don't believe in your God either.


You are jumping the gun on a lot of topics and trying to finish a race, without riding along the track. I usually avoid participating in such discussions, but for the purpose of clarification, I suppose I will for a change.

First, it is important to understand that the 7 Noahide laws encompasses many concepts already within the Torah and Judaism. By fulfilling them, you are in a sense fulfilling a vast majority of positive/negative commandments in the same hand.

So what does this actually mean?
Let us suppose that we are looking at a specific kind of mushroom, while walking down a trail in the park.

How is this mushroom defined and how do we describe it?

The average guy walking in the park:
To this man, the mushroom he looks at may be described as red and white, funny looking, or interesting. He knows that since it is an unfamiliar mushroom to him grown in the wild, that he probably shouldn't eat it and that he may get sick if he does. He still has admiration for its unique features however.

The scientist walking in the park:
To this man, he clearly sees the mushroom as a classification of an amanita muscaria. He knows that it is part of the Fungi kingdom, and can categorize the mushroom by phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species. He knows why one should not eat the mushroom and the effects it would have on someone who does. He can tell you the mushroom's habitats, its symbiotic relationship in nature and why one should not eat it, along with the affects it can have on an individual who does decide to consume it.

Is any man wrong in this scenario? No, both opinions are absolutely valid and correct. The Noahide can be likened to the average man walking in the park. He can describe what he sees, understanding that something may not be good for him, and have admiration for the unique features of Judaism. The Jewish person, who practices the religion, is also correct, but takes a more in-depth approach to the study of such materials and understands why we must adhere to them and the different scenarios and situations that may be involved.

So, let us take a look at the actual 7 Noahide laws and define them a bit better and let us take a moment to clear up two things:

Listen, I understand why you believe that Christians cannot attain Heaven; but for Jews to turn around and say that God-despising Atheists are eligible for God's Kingdom just strikes me as legalistic.


A) Atheism is the disbelief in God.
With this statement, we cannot imply that someone who disbelieves in God also has ill will towards the concept of God itself. We can assume that some atheists dislike religion in its entirety, and this encompasses and transcends all beliefs, but this is not the same thing.

What are the 7 Noahide laws?

1. Do not murder.
2. Do not steal.
3. Do not worship false gods.
4. Do not be sexually immoral.
5. Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
6. Do not curse God.
7. Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

By this statement, we can conclude the following:

- The Atheist who curses God is by default not obeying the 7 Noahide laws.
- The Christian is worshiping a false prophet and God, and is by default committing idolatry and not obeying the 7 Noahide laws.

I hope this clarifies it a bit for you.
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#13 ijs

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:55 PM

Atheism is the disbelief in God. With this statement, we cannot imply that someone who disbelieves in God also has ill will towards the concept of God itself. We can assume that some atheists dislike religion in its entirety, and this encompasses and transcends all beliefs, but this is not the same thing.


Not only that, but there are different brands of atheist. Some positively assert there is no G-d. Others simply cite lack of evidence and thus no reason to believe.

6. Do not curse God.


I’ve heard this one a bit differently – i.e., no blasphemy. This is not merely a matter of cursing G-d so much as claiming to speak for G-d - i.e., on G-d’s behalf or in His place.
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#14 mroof

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:59 PM

Not only that, but there are different brands of atheist. Some positively assert there is no G-d. Others simply cite lack of evidence and thus no reason to believe.

Right. We can also conclude that not all Christians believe in the concept of the Triune by the same hand. However, they do believe that God manifested himself as a human as well.

I’ve heard this one a bit differently – i.e., no blasphemy. This is not merely a matter of cursing G-d so much as claiming to speak for G-d - i.e., on G-d’s behalf or in His place.

Right. The base definition of blasphemy is not cursing God. This can obviously go much deeper.
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#15 SUMMERSUP

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:00 PM

Are we all thinking that girl is hot?...

#16 Templar

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:08 PM

Others pray to and worship Jesus, though.

Me, for instance. Just so you know, the Arian-type Christians who deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ are considered heretics by most main-stream denominations.



“Legalistic” merely means following the law.

Colloquially, "Legalistic" means rules for their own sake rather than for any useful purpose.

If the atheist truly worships nothing, then he is not committing idolatry, whereas in contrast the Xian is by virtue of his worship of a Trinity (for those that do so, that is). So it’s not that strange if you take a few minutes to think about it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Rules for their own sake rather then for any purpose.

Why does Judaism forbid idolatry? Because idolaters worship a false god instead of Hashem.
What is an Atheist? Someone who worships nothing instead of Hashem.
Either way, the end result is that Hashem is not worshiped, whether the substitute is an idol or nothing...but the while the Idolater cannot get to heaven, the Atheist can. The Noahide Laws therefore seem to declare that while Hashem is offended by people who replace Him with an idol, He is not offended by people who replace Him with nothing. THAT is legalistic.


And that's only at face value; when I take into account what idolatry actually means, the Noahide Laws make even less sense to me.
Again, what is an Idolater? Someone who worships a false god. Are false gods real? No, they are not. So, functionally speaking, the idolater worships nothing.

The idolater worships nothing while thinking it's something, and this is a violation of the Noahide Laws.

The atheist worships nothing while thinking it's nothing...and this is in full accordance with the Noahide Laws.

They're both the same offense with different packaging, but Hashem only punishes one.

#17 warren

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:16 PM

- The Christian is worshiping a false prophet and God, and is by default committing idolatry and not obeying the 7 Noahide laws.

That's not so clear cut. Please search for threads on this site where the word "shittuf" appears.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

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#18 mroof

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:16 PM

Wow, sounds like a lot of confusion. I'll have to get back to this in a bit I guess, when I'm done doing some chores.
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#19 usuario

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

I'm not so sure conversion to Judaism is like naturalizing to a new nationality. When one naturalizes to become a Swiss / U.S. / Canadian citizenship, they are recognized by every court of law in the land as being of the new nationality. However, when one converts to Judaism, they are only recognized as Jewish by those rabbis and communities with the same or more lax halachic standards than the beit din they converted with. There is no universally recognized halachic conversion, the only sure way to not have your Jewishness questioned is to have a clear matrilineal Jewish line.

#20 sal

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:16 PM

I don’t know enough about this one, but my understanding is that 12 months is the maximum for anyone – though I know there are exceptions, so I am almost certainly mistaken and lacking in understanding of the details. Anyone else have something on this?


12 months is not the max even for a jew. See rosh(the rishon in back of the gemara) in rosh hashana 17. There are jews who are eligible to burn for ever. I wonder if that makes Templar feel better.
I'm not sure if Templar realizes what a sinful jew means. It means someone who did not wear teffilin. I don't think Christians even consider that a sin,




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