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I hate my shietal..Has ANYONE done this?


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#21 Shoshi

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:24 AM

Thanks warren.
I appreciate all the perspectives you offered.
I do think it's important to note that it's not so relevant whether a particular rabbi is married to a woman who does/doesn't cover her hair. Maybe the rabbi and his wife disagree on this issue! This is always a possibility, remember. His wife's attire does not reliably inform us of his viewpoints.

#22 Rivka5768

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:14 PM

Wow and I thought only Muslims disputed over the hair coverings

#23 sal

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:57 AM

Rivka, to clarify, some Orthodox Jews believe that it is mandatory for married women to cover either part or all of their hair after they get married, in particular when they are in public/outside of their homes.

Change that to all jews who believe that the sh"a and poskim should be followed.

#24 sal

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:05 AM

The first EH doesn't quite say she must, but that her husband can divorce her if she doesn't, and that in such a case she doesn't collect her divorce settlement as specified in the ketubah.


Of course it doesn't say she must. Its not talking about hilchos tznius. That is what 21 2 is saying.

Thanks. So it seems that the practice of married women having to cover their hair is quite shaky, halachically.

Absolutely not. It is quite clear that a women who is not a virgin must cover her hair on the street.

I have no idea how you inferred that from warren's post.

The second EH interestingly forbids all women, single or married, from going to the marketplace bareheaded.



#25 sal

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:10 AM

As are you, but where does your opinion come from? The Gemara is filled with Oral Law, but the Oral Law itself, it is not. Unlike the Written Torah which a person can hold a copy of or put on a bookshelf, the Oral Torah is larger than any work of writing. It's larger than an entire library, or even a hypothetical library that includes every book ever written about Torah.

The gemara is a source for Halacha? Like, if you have a question, you'll open a gemara? Or you'll bring it to your rabbi who'll open one? Not a Shulchan Aruch?

You may be correct that you don't pasken directly from a gemara and it would be wrong to do so.
But basis for all psokim have their foundation in the talmud.
I would not trust a posek who has not learned the gemara.

#26 Shoshi

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

Change that to all jews who believe that the sh"a and poskim should be followed.


Absolutely not. Some Orthodox Jews follow Orthodox rabbis who posken that it is not clear if a married woman needs to cover her hair. And again, please point out where exactly in the Shulchan Aruch is states that a married woman must cover her hair. I don't believe it is in there.

I have no idea how you inferred that from warren's post.
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This is what warren's post said:
"The first EH doesn't quite say she must, but that her husband can divorce her if she doesn't, and that in such a case she doesn't collect her divorce settlement as specified in the ketubah.
The OC also doesn't forbid a woman to be bareheaded but prohibits a man from reading the Shema in the presence of a woman's hair which is normally covered.
The second EH interestingly forbids all women, single or married, from going to the marketplace bareheaded."

These are all hardly proof that there is any halacha that a married woman must cover her hair according to Jewish Law.

#27 warren

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

You may be correct that you don't pasken directly from a gemara and it would be wrong to do so.
But basis for all psokim have their foundation in the talmud.
I would not trust a posek who has not learned the gemara.

I don't think we're disagreeing.
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

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#28 sal

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:41 PM

Absolutely not. Some Orthodox Jews follow Orthodox rabbis who posken that it is not clear if a married woman needs to cover her hair. And again, please point out where exactly in the Shulchan Aruch is states that a married woman must cover her hair. I don't believe it is in there.

ע''ה כא ב
לא תלכנה בנות ישראל פרועות ראש בשוק אחד פנויה ואחד אשת איש
Is that not enough clear?

The second EH interestingly forbids all women, single or married, from going to the marketplace bareheaded."

Which part of that statement do you not understand. The part that says forbid?

#29 Shoshi

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:21 PM

ע''ה כא ב
לא תלכנה בנות ישראל פרועות ראש בשוק אחד פנויה ואחד אשת איש
Is that not enough clear?


Which part of that statement do you not understand. The part that says forbid?


If it is saying that all women, single and married, are forbidden from going to the marketplace bareheaded, then clearly we don't take this statement to inform halacha today, since *single* Jewish women are permitted today, and in fact Orthodox single women do, go out in public without covering their hair.

#30 Pinchas

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:59 AM

My posek says " פרועות" meaning flowing... meaning not tied down (i.e. like in a bun) and the strict halacha is that the hair not be lose and "flowing." However, he still recommends it be covered.

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#31 sal

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:22 PM

If it is saying that all women, single and married, are forbidden from going to the marketplace bareheaded, then clearly we don't take this statement to inform halacha today, since *single* Jewish women are permitted today, and in fact Orthodox single women do, go out in public without covering their hair.


I think you are confusing virgin with single.
Single women who have been married do continue to cover their hair. Girls that were never married do not.

My posek says " פרועות" meaning flowing... meaning not tied down (i.e. like in a bun) and the strict halacha is that the hair not be lose and "flowing." However, he still recommends it be covered.


I think the parua actually means wild, as in pereh adam.

#32 Shoshi

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:53 PM

I think you are confusing virgin with single.
Single women who have been married do continue to cover their hair. Girls that were never married do not.


No I am not confusing virgin with single.

And I know that many Orthodox divorced/widowed women cover their hair; some do not.
That is not the issue

The issue is that the passage from which you are claiming to derive halacha states that it is forbidden for ALL women to go to the marketplace with uncovered hair.
As many Jewish women do go with uncovered hair (single women, for example), we clearly do not use this passage to inform halacha.

So my question remains: where in the halacha/Shulchan Aruch does it say that married women must cover their hair?

#33 sal

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:18 PM

No I am not confusing virgin with single.

And I know that many Orthodox divorced/widowed women cover their hair; some do not.

What is your point?
Some orthodox jewish women don't cover their hair. Therefor?

That is not the issue

The issue is that the passage from which you are claiming to derive halacha states that it is forbidden for ALL women to go to the marketplace with uncovered hair.
As many Jewish women do go with uncovered hair (single women, for example), we clearly do not use this passage to inform halacha.

Are you bringing me evidence from what people do, to the correct halacha?


So my question remains: where in the halacha/Shulchan Aruch does it say that married women must cover their hair?

If it would say that married women must cover their hair as apposed to non-married women that would not be true. So why should it say that?

#34 Snag

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 05:31 AM

I think the parua actually means wild, as in pereh adam.

I dont think so - that pereh ks with an alef. This one is with an shining, from upora es Rosh haisha.

No I am not confusing virgin with single.

And I know that many Orthodox divorced/widowed women cover their hair; some do not.
That is not the issue

The issue is that the passage from which you are claiming to derive halacha states that it is forbidden for ALL women to go to the marketplace with uncovered hair.
As many Jewish women do go with uncovered hair (single women, for example), we clearly do not use this passage to inform halacha.

So my question remains: where in the halacha/Shulchan Aruch does it say that married women must cover their hair?

Sam's point was that from the SA's use of the word penuya-unmarried woman, rather than betulah-virgin, we can infer that the SA is not saying that a never-married woman needs to cover her hair in the marketplace, but that a woman once married, even.if currently single, also needs to cover her hair. This fits with how a great number of poslim view the halacha, and, in fact, the onus would be on the dissenting.opinions to prove why their position.is in accordance with normative halacha as codified in the SA.
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#35 sal

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:26 AM

I dont think so - that pereh ks with an alef. This one is with an shining, from upora es Rosh haisha.


You're right

#36 Rivka5768

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:29 AM

So basically......a woman covering her hair is symbolic of her being her husbands property?

and why is everyone so concerned about a womans hair and a womans virginity. gosh.

#37 Shoshi

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 11:04 AM

lol Rivkah

#38 Rivka5768

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

haha I'm half kidding.....except for everyone being so concerned with our hair and virginity. it gets stressful after a few thousand years lol. no but I like the idea of modesty and covering the hair but i dont know about wearing a wig as thats just fake hair. like you cant cover sex appeal with sex appeal. I like cloth shietal but maybe im extremely old fashioned.

#39 TimeRebbe

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:52 AM

haha I'm half kidding.....except for everyone being so concerned with our hair and virginity. it gets stressful after a few thousand years lol. no but I like the idea of modesty and covering the hair but i dont know about wearing a wig as thats just fake hair. like you cant cover sex appeal with sex appeal. I like cloth shietal but maybe im extremely old fashioned.

Do married Virginians need to cover their hair?
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#40 warren

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

I hear that after the first thousand of so of being a virgin it gets easier
Poe's law: without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism

If not now, when? Because I have lunch plans.

Purple is indeed very important

The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know... what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. - "A Serious Man"




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