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1) How many timers do you have, 2) what are they for and 3) what issue

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#21 Pinchas

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:03 AM

My Auerbach reference exists - (SSK 1:26). I have seen it. Your's does not and therefore you can not cite it. You can easily prove me wrong by citing it.

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#22 josephal

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:19 AM

My Auerbach reference exists - (SSK 1:26). I have seen it. Your's does not and therefore you can not cite it. You can easily prove me wrong by citing it.


Pinchas, don't worry. I will have the reference for you. It is arrogance to claim that a source does not exist simply because of lack of knowledge. This is a logical fallacy. When you write that you "have seen it," is this from an original source or from that Internet link you posted? Relying on the Internet is not a scholarly way of doing things. At least, that is my modus operandi.

By the way, for the 3 people reading this thread, I would point to Pinchas's method of argumentation. Notice how the arguments have changed. So far he has conceded my main points.

#23 josephal

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:29 AM

My Auerbach reference exists - (SSK 1:26). I have seen it. Your's does not and therefore you can not cite it. You can easily prove me wrong by citing it.


By the way, I just want to note that I'm not disputing your reference. I'm in no way doubting your claim, however, it is not unusual to have posekim have contradictory pesakim. There are many examples in halachic literature of posekim changing a previous pesak. My source, however, does exist, and I will look it up for you because I have actually seen the original.

#24 Snag

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:07 AM

While the SSK 1:26 does prohibit putting food on an oven which will later turn on, citing a number of poskim, it is difficult to understand his reasoning for differentiating between that an a regular grama which is permitted for great need (see, for instance, 13:28 where he permits plugging in an appliance which will turn on when the timer activates).
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#25 Snag

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:12 AM

See also there 30:8 where e permits telling a gentile to put food on an oven which will turn on by a timer, and in note 30 cites a Beis Efrayim who says that a Jew may put food on an oven which a non-Jew will afterwards turn on. His reasoning (in 1:26 note 74) to differentiate is that in this case there is an additional human action required to ignite the oven, which is not the case by a timer. It is interesting to try to blend RMF's view on timers with this to try to actually be mattir.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#26 josephal

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:23 AM

See also there 30:8 where e permits telling a gentile to put food on an oven which will turn on by a timer, and in note 30 cites a Beis Efrayim who says that a Jew may put food on an oven which a non-Jew will afterwards turn on. His reasoning (in 1:26 note 74) to differentiate is that in this case there is an additional human action required to ignite the oven, which is not the case by a timer. It is interesting to try to blend RMF's view on timers with this to try to actually be mattir.


You've hit the nail on the head. I would add that the "blending" of views is in fact how the halachah works. It's an amalgamation of sources (for example, from Shas, Shulchan Aruch, etc). This is quite different from picking and choosing from the most lenient views.

#27 Pinchas

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:54 PM

I am not agreeing with you nor conceding points. Furthermore it is arrogant.of you to assume I am only looking at internet links. I have looked in the SSK inside. I await your source.

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#28 Snag

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:17 PM

Why the belligerence?
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#29 josephal

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:09 AM

I am not agreeing with you nor conceding points. Furthermore it is arrogant.of you to assume I am only looking at internet links. I have looked in the SSK inside. I await your source.



Pinchas,

Guess what? I found the Auerbach source you so confidently claimed did not exist. We’re preparing for Shabbat now, so I will write sometime afterward, as there are other points from your posts that have to be addressed as well.

I better run so I can fabricate and invent more sources! Shabbat shalom.

#30 Pinchas

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:43 AM

Shabbat Shalom! :)

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#31 josephal

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:36 PM

As I wrote previously, I have the Auerbach source that you confidently claimed did not exist, while baselessly accusing me of “false claims.” You added that I can “easily prove [you] wrong by citing it.” Before citing the source, however, there are a few points that need to be addressed.

Your insistence that the Auerbach source did not exist is a diversion from the actual points made. As already mentioned, there is no need to make up a reference to make my case (especially since the reference exists!).

Moreover, to be lenient on the issue the arguments put forth hold even without the Auerbach reference (or Rav Yosef’s or without the many other pertinent sources, for that matter). As I mentioned, I have a rav whom I follow le’heter & le’isur, and in this matter he is lenient.

Rabbis Auerbach and Yosef are arguably undisputed heavyweights with much halachic clout; in and of itself this is irrelevant, but in bringing up these specific lenient rulings by them highlights that this practice is not based on an aberrant pesak by some obscure rabbi in the Aborigines. You have understated how well-founded this opinion actually is in halachah.

I don’t see where I wrote that you agree with me. As far as you “conceding” my points, so far, as is evident from your posts, we see that you have dropped the bishul argument (your initial concern). You went from bishul to how posekim hold on gerama; and now, you’ve acknowledged that there is an opinion “that holds gerama litzorach gufo is permitted.”

You say that “it is arrogant of [me] to assume [you] only look […] at internet links.” I didn't assume anything; I specifically asked a question (which you didn’t answer). Furthermore, the word “arrogant” is more fitting with say, someone who claims a source does not exist due to ignorance . . . but we’re not here to discuss semantics.

Speaking of sources, here it is:

הרב שלמה זלמן אוירבך הליכות שלמה סימן רנג דף ט -

The previous מנחת שלמה reference conflated with the above source in my mind since they both have in common “שלמה” in the title. What’s more, in מנחת שלמה the issue of timers and gerama is specifically discussed. מאורי אש was an obvious one since the entire book is about electricity and halachah.

Your fixation on seeing this reference inspired me to look for more applicable case references. See, for example, ארחות שבת כרך ג' יט, כט which quotes Rav Auerbach permitting gerama on a melacha de’oraita for a davar she’eino mitkaven, including pesik reisha, (i.e., when it is known definitively that an unintended forbidden action will occur as a result of an intentional permitted act). Bear in mind that this is in the context of those who hold gerama is forbidden; moreover, even in this context it is forbidden only miderabanan, yet Rav Auerbach permits this on a melacha de’oraita.

To avoid any confusion, let’s go back to the basics; following Rabbi Shimon, davar she’eino mitkaven is mutar with derabanan actions. Rabbi Shimon decrees that there is no transgression, and this is in fact the halachah. The gemara is lenient and rules in agreement with Rabbi Shimon. Moreover, even if a person le’chatchilah selects a way of doing a permitted act which may result in a forbidden action, and it occurs (davar she’eino mitkaven pesik reisha), one is not held liable. (See הרב יוסף קארו בית יוסף אורח חיים סימן שלז ,שולחן ערוך סימן שלז סעיף א).

The bottom line is that this practice is well-founded in halachah. Those without a rav for pesak halachah certainly have legitimate sources and posekim on whom to rely.

By the way, although slightly irrelevant, I thought it would be worthwhile to note how Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach himself addresses my rav in a particular teshuvah; while disagreeing with my rav’s ruling, Rav Auerbach addresses him as follows: “To his honored excellence, the great and precious man, the Rabbi and Gaon, the highly praised, our teacher [. . .], may he live to long and good days.” Not really relevant, but just in case one thinks my Rav is the Aborigines Gaon. I can give you the reference for that as well if you’re interested.

#32 Pinchas

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:27 AM

Welcome to H.com. Thank you for the references. I will look them up.

What bothered me the most was that you came off as seemingly having disdain for anyone who is ever machmir: "כח דהיתירא עדיף"

And you seemed to claim that there is no way to have oneg shabbat without being makel in this regard. Which is patently false. This past Shabbos we had plenty of hot water (from an electric shabbos kumkum) and were able to perfectly heat up barekas for suedat shlishi on the hotplate...which by the way were placed directly on the hot hotplate which I can be argued is even more makel than you are which sort of defeats to point I'm making I guess... but I still have the water kumkum....

(BTW please be careful with putting food inside the oven as if you take some food out but leave some food in the hot oven and then close the door it could be bishul.)

Anyway, I see that you take a halacha seriously and aren't simply trying to see how you can be as makel as possible for the sake of being makel so perhaps I overreacted, but as there are a lot of people new to Judaism visiting the site I don't want people to get the wrong impression that you can put a timer on your t.v. set, lawnmower, dishwasher and washing machine and still be keeping Shabbos properly. Indeed this was Rav Moshe Feinstein's fear when the timer was invented and he was asked about if it's permissible for Shabbos use.

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#33 josephal

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:45 AM

Pinchas,

Thanks for the welcome.

I don’t have disdain for anyone who is ever machmir. You might be surprised at some of the isurim if I come off as “lenient.”

I did not claim that “there is no way to have oneg Shabbat without being mekeil in this regard.” I clearly wrote that it *enhances* oneg Shabbat. This is a subjective issue; I’m very persnickety with food and the taste is affected depending on how it’s heated.

By the time I take the burekas out of the oven, the oven is already off, so there is no concern of bishul (I take out all the food at once anyway).

Putting a T.V., radio on timers would be a problem. Dishwashers are a different story; depending on how the dishwasher operates, some are okay to put on a timer. In fact, if done properly my rav says it’s a mitzvah to do so for Shabbat.

By the way, check Rav Ovadia Yosef’s teshuvah. There he also gives the Auerbach הליכות שלמה reference, as well as just about every possible pertinent source.


#34 Pinchas

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:30 AM

Interesting re the dishwasher comment.

I guess this comes down to the same issue of heating water via a timer.

Rav Moshe's concern was more hashkafic however. That if timers are overused it would be hard to tell the difference between Shabbos and a workday. Only after he witnessed that mostly people limited using timers to lights and airconditioners did he withdraw his strict opposition to them...

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L






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