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Difference Between "Baal Keri" and "Zav"?


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#1 london

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:52 PM

In gemora brochos there seem to be references of "Baal Keri" and "zav", Can someone be so kind to explain the fundamental difference between the two or are they the same thing?

thanks

#2 Snag

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:11 AM

A Baal keri is someone who emits semen once. A zav is someone who has two or more emissions. The former is tamei until he immerses in a mikvah, and after that need only wait for nightfall to be permitted to eat kodshim. The latter cannot purify himself in a mikvah until he has seven days with no emissions, and, if he had three emissions, he subsequently needs to bring a korban before he can eat kodshim again.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

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#3 london

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:34 AM

A Baal keri is someone who emits semen once. A zav is someone who has two or more emissions. The former is tamei until he immerses in a mikvah, and after that need only wait for nightfall to be permitted to eat kodshim. The latter cannot purify himself in a mikvah until he has seven days with no emissions, and, if he had three emissions, he subsequently needs to bring a korban before he can eat kodshim again.


Thanks for your clear definition And is the definition above same whether intentional (e.g masturbate) or accidental(wet dreams)? Also after relations with ones wife, does that make him a baal keri or a zav, even if he "does it" a few times?

Sorry for the graphic nature of this but I need to understand this to help me understand the gemora better.

#4 Snag

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

Thanks for your clear definition And is the definition above same whether intentional (e.g masturbate) or accidental(wet dreams)? Also after relations with ones wife, does that make him a baal keri or a zav, even if he "does it" a few times?

Sorry for the graphic nature of this but I need to understand this to help me understand the gemora better.

Yes, I forgot to mention that a Baal keri gets that status whether intentional or accidental, while a zav is only when it was accidental. In fact, if a person ate or drank too much, etc., he cannot become a zav. Therefore, someone sleeping with his wife would invariably be a Baal keri, regardless of how often.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#5 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:10 PM

Is that the accepted "psak"? Aren't there those that say zav is a different color, or outright doesn't exist today?
[/flirting]

#6 Snag

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:15 PM

Is that the accepted "psak"? Aren't there those that say zav is a different color, or outright doesn't exist today?

Its irrelevant today, anyways, since tumah and taharah are not practiced. The gemara says that zov is a slightly different shade and viscosity than keri, but I'm unsure about the practical application.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#7 Shoshi

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:30 PM

Its irrelevant today, anyways, since tumah and taharah are not practiced.


If tumah and taharah are not practiced today, then why do women still have to go to the mikvah?

#8 Red Hare

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

looked llike Barbie and Ken. hehehehe
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#9 Snag

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:41 PM

If tumah and taharah are not practiced today, then why do women still have to go to the mikvah?

Because niddah is an issur, in addition to the tumah aspect. (there is acharonic discussion whether the issur is separate from or connected to the tumah, but it definitely exists).
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#10 london

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:16 PM

The same gemora in brochos also talks about "40 seah" of water or 9 kavs of water to purify.

It seems to me 9 Kavs is not a lot of water. Would having a shower "remove" some the the tumah like 9 kavs of water?

#11 Snag

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:53 PM

The same gemora in brochos also talks about "40 seah" of water or 9 kavs of water to purify.

It seems to me 9 Kavs is not a lot of water. Would having a shower "remove" some the the tumah like 9 kavs of water?

I believe the Tisha kavin need to be poured over the tamei by human power .
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#12 Kalashnikover_Rebbe

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

Its irrelevant today, anyways, since tumah and taharah are not practiced. The gemara says that zov is a slightly different shade and viscosity than keri, but I'm unsure about the practical application.

One practical nafka mina is Har Habayis. A zav needs to go to a mayan to be purified and not just a regular mik... But the "prevailing psak" is that Zav no longer exists today...
[/flirting]

#13 Dan

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:26 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zav
כלל זה יהא נקוט בידך: מי שאינו רואה את המקום [=ה'] בכל מקום, אינו רואה בשום מקום
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#14 london

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:02 AM

The more I read about zav the more it sounds like gonorrhea discharge.......

#15 Pinchas

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:25 AM

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#16 warren

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 06:01 AM

Linguistic puzzle. The Torah describes a zav as אִישׁ אִישׁ כִּי יִהְיֶה זָב מִבְּשָׂרוֹ (Vaykira 15:2) and a baal keri as וְאִישׁ כִּי תֵצֵא מִמֶּנּוּ שִׁכְבַת זָרַע (ibid 15:16). So why in the language of Chazal has "seminal emission" changed to "happened"? Here's Jastrow.

Posted Image

And why the synecdoche? Why has involuntary emission become the general term for all emission?

Then there's King Shaul, who in Shmuel I 20:26 tries to explain to himself that David is missing from the Rosh Chodesh meal because מקרה הוא which Rashi explains as קרי ראה. Somehow there's something creepy about your father-in-law thinking about that. Like why not, maybe he went to get his harp restrung? Or because I threw a spear at him last chapter?
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#17 Snag

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:16 AM

Linguistic puzzle. The Torah describes a zav as אִישׁ אִישׁ כִּי יִהְיֶה זָב מִבְּשָׂרוֹ (Vaykira 15:2) and a baal keri as וְאִישׁ כִּי תֵצֵא מִמֶּנּוּ שִׁכְבַת זָרַע (ibid 15:16). So why in the language of Chazal has "seminal emission" changed to "happened"? Here'"s Jastrow.

Posted Image

Its not a chazalic innovation; the word keri means happening in the Torah as well, like vayikar mikreha by Ruth, im telchu imi keri in the tochacha, etc. But, as the Rambam notes, Lashon Hakodesh is thus called because it euphemizes.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

"The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government. An earthly despotism would be the absolutely perfect earthly government, if the conditions were the same; namely, the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual. But as a perishable perfect man must die, and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible."

-Mark Twain

#18 warren

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:21 AM

Its not a chazalic innovation; the word keri means happening in the Torah as well, like vayikar mikreha by Ruth, im telchu imi keri in the tochacha, etc. But, as the Rambam notes, Lashon Hakodesh is thus called because it euphemizes.

My question was not where the word keri came from, and the reason I picked Shmuel rather than the other examples because there what "happened" was related to tumah. Although there, it's not clear from either Shaul or Rashi which sort of emission Shaul is thinking about. For that matter, why does it have to be any sort of emission? Rashi thinks they're eating chullin, but what's the issue? And if they're eating chullin al taharat hakodesh, what's the difference if they're eating chullin or kodshin. But wouldn't there be a whole bunch of other "happenings" that could make someone unable to eat kodshin (or chullin al taharat ...)? He killed a Philistine with a sword. He buried a meit mitzvah. On the other hand, maybe Shault's mind just worked that way, notice what he said to Yonatan the next day.

My question is how nocturnal emissions became the word for all emissions. Particularly when the Torah doesn't euphemize. I'm not even sure that it is a euphemism. At least if you're married, if someone does come across your dirty sheets, which explanation for the stains is preferable?
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#19 sal

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:56 AM

A Baal keri is someone who emits semen once. A zav is someone who has two or more emissions. The former is tamei until he immerses in a mikvah, and after that need only wait for nightfall to be permitted to eat kodshim. The latter cannot purify himself in a mikvah until he has seven days with no emissions, and, if he had three emissions, he subsequently needs to bring a korban before he can eat kodshim again.


See first mishna in zavim.

Machlokes beis shamai and beis hillel whether a zav that only saw once is tomei as shomeres yom or as a ba'al keri. Apparently they are not the same thing.
The bartenura explains the difference.

#20 Rentsy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:19 PM

http://books.google....hot zav&f=false

Read around there in the Tosefta to Berakhot, and you will know things.

Look also at page 7 of the book, where he cites the Tosefta to Zavim as an example of where Tosefta provides information found nowhere else.
רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק העשירי, הלכה ב

העובד מאהבה - עוסק בתורה ובמצוות והולך במתיבות החוכמה לא מפני דבר בעולם, לא מפני יראת הרעה ולא כדי לירש הטובה, אלא עושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת

הלכה ג

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