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The Torah as the first Scripture


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#1 david9

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:16 AM

Hi guys,

I am sometimes fedup with arguing with Xtians and Muslims, some of them even claiming that the Bible is written way after the Qur'an, and that nobody except the Rabiies was able to read the Torah before 19th century, some even say that the Hebrew language is derived from Arabic etc etc, and so on...
So does anyone have any proof of the antiquity of our Torah, and how can someone certify them with proofs that our Torah is much, way much older and earlier then Qur'an and N.T.?


In my modest research I found the oldest manuscripts dating in Syria in 10th century, and a few from Spain XIV XVc. But that's no good since it's confirming their claim...

I would appreciate any information, link or hint... :pop:

Thank you guys, and G-d bless!

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#2 33948

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:56 PM

Nobody seriously believes that the x-tian bible is older than it's own oldest books. So maybe you are wasting your time arguing with idiots. The dead sea scrolls were supposed to be thousands of years old and included books of the bible. The writing was nearly identical to the modern versions so it proved that they are pretty accurate and old.

#3 Alexander

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:39 PM

I am sometimes fedup with arguing with Xtians and Muslims, some of them even claiming that the Bible is written way after the Qur'an, and that nobody except the Rabiies was able to read the Torah before 19th century, some even say that the Hebrew language is derived from Arabic etc etc, and so on...

I'm almost certain no one seriously claims this, since it's entirely nonsensical in the context of Christianity and Islam. The NT and Qur'an themselves make numerous references to and outright quote the Hebrew Bible numerous times. Christianity is founded on the idea that Jesus fulfills the messianic prophecies, how would that make sense if he preceded them?

#4 david9

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:26 PM

Thank you dear guys for participating!
I know what you are saying, and I know all that...
BUT, this is how they write on some Forums...
I usually do not like to copy and paste others posts, but here it is: :)

there is no YHWW no nothing like that
the whole bible is written way after the quran, nobody had the right to read the bible before the 19th century, so we don't know how was the bible before the 19th century
about hebreu, we cannot take it as a historical language, because it was invented as a language in the 17th century, ispired from greek, modern arabic, and some dialects from arab countries

the reason that made them say the god's name is I AM , is the verse :
سورة طه - - الآية 14 -
إِنَّنِي أَنَا اللَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا أَنَا فَاعْبُدْنِي وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ لِذِكْرِي
I AM Allah , thare is no ideal except ANA (I AM) ... 20:14

The proof that this was spoken in the same TONGUE as the Quran, and that moses's language was the Same as the Quranic language, is that it can be read from left to right



One member also writes:

the quran took hundereds of years, every messenger added some, the quran contains the injeel and torah and other books,
the biggest problem no one wants to realise, is that the language of the Quran, is the 1st language humanity ever known, it is not arabic language, but universel language and every language of the world is made from the quranic language , including english and modern arabic 'sounds crazy', the truth always does


The problem is that we do not have archeological evidences or ancient manuscripts of Torah before the 10 th century to prove...

Shalom!
G-d bless!

#5 Pinchas

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:08 AM

With all due respect who really cares what a few idiots posting on some obscure internet forum think?

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Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#6 TimeRebbe

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:41 AM

With all due respect who really cares what a few idiots posting on some obscure internet forum think?

http://imgs.xkcd.com.../duty_calls.png


xkcd... :wub:
"10 a.m. - We begin our descent. On the way down, Chief of Landfills Thorne informs us that Mount Trashmore contains - I am not making this up - human body parts AND dead whales." -Dave Barry
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
"I guess the problem is that I think most people are idiots (granted, WELL MEANING idiots)" --KR

#7 Guest_halevy_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:03 PM

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#8 spectra

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:08 PM

You could ask him if he invented the songs birds sing, the dogs bark and the cat's meow. They do communicate; you know.

#9 david9

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:38 PM

David9, pls take a look at this article: http://www.beingjewi...ageoftorah.html
Seems quite comprehensive and the logical sequence is self-explaining.
Even though, Pinchas' point on the limited benefits of discussing serious subjects with idiots has its merit...


Thank you so much for that article!
It is very good , and we all know that which is written there... I agree with you, it is excellent how he builds it.
But still, do we possess any document or manuscript earlier then 10th century as a proof, as they have the Uthman Qur'an from VII c?
I agree that it is not so wise to discuss with idiots, although I duuno if they are.
I was just wondering do we have any physical concrete proof as that copy of their Holy book from 651 CE?
Thank you guys

With all due respect who really cares what a few idiots posting on some obscure internet forum think?

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hahahaha
love the vignette!

#10 Pinchas

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:09 AM

I was just wondering do we have any physical concrete proof as that copy of their Holy book from 651 CE?


The Dead Sea Scrolls predate that book by about 800 years... yawn. For example:
http://en.wikipedia....i/Isaiah_scroll

Pinchas is right - micha

 

For the record, IRL he is a really nice guy! - HappyDuck, Z"L


#11 paganyid

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:01 PM

Those are before Christianity and Islam...

#12 david9

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:12 PM

The Dead Sea Scrolls predate that book by about 800 years... yawn. For example:
http://en.wikipedia....i/Isaiah_scroll


Thank you! That's cool :thumbsup:

#13 Rivka5768

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:08 AM

Hi guys,

I am sometimes fedup with arguing with Xtians and Muslims, some of them even claiming that the Bible is written way after the Qur'an, and that nobody except the Rabiies was able to read the Torah before 19th century, some even say that the Hebrew language is derived from Arabic etc etc, and so on...
So does anyone have any proof of the antiquity of our Torah, and how can someone certify them with proofs that our Torah is much, way much older and earlier then Qur'an and N.T.?


In my modest research I found the oldest manuscripts dating in Syria in 10th century, and a few from Spain XIV XVc. But that's no good since it's confirming their claim...

I would appreciate any information, link or hint... :pop:

Thank you guys, and G-d bless!



I really like how you delve into your research! I have many Muslim friends and they say the same thing but I figure you can't teach a duck how to bark. So to speak.

You could ask him if he invented the songs birds sing, the dogs bark and the cat's meow. They do communicate; you know.


I think I just fell in love with you. They do communicate indeed :)

#14 spectra

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

I really like how you delve into your research! I have many Muslim friends and they say the same thing but I figure you can't teach a duck how to bark. So to speak.



I think I just fell in love with you. They do communicate indeed :)


I'm glad that you got, what I was saying. Which is basically to "worship God". Sometimes God is overlooked in the arguement. Which makes you wonder what the arguement is about.

#15 Rivka5768

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:18 PM

I'm glad that you got, what I was saying. Which is basically to "worship God". Sometimes God is overlooked in the arguement. Which makes you wonder what the arguement is about.


Basically. And I did understand what you were saying and I really enjoyed how you said it. You know, I've spent my life tending to animals :) and when I observe them, no matter if they are different than I, I know that there is a God. I know that God makes all life diverse for a reason and we tend to forget that he holds the knowledge, not us. And yes, animals can communicate...if you are willing to learn from them. And that's my point, learn from other people. I wish I could say learn from animals and nature as well but if humans aren't willing to learn from one another....well the latter sure isn't going to happen lol.

#16 spectra

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:59 PM

Basically. And I did understand what you were saying and I really enjoyed how you said it. You know, I've spent my life tending to animals :) and when I observe them, no matter if they are different than I, I know that there is a God. I know that God makes all life diverse for a reason and we tend to forget that he holds the knowledge, not us. And yes, animals can communicate...if you are willing to learn from them. And that's my point, learn from other people. I wish I could say learn from animals and nature as well but if humans aren't willing to learn from one another....well the latter sure isn't going to happen lol.


If you believe the story of the flood. When Noah let the birds and animals into the ark. Noah is acknowledging God's one voice and language over all. God shared those sentiments with Adam when God brought the birds and animals to him. To recieve a name.

At the tower of Babel, after the flood. They were looking to their own exploits. God confused their language, and they stopped building the tower and went their ways. The one voice and language over all, belongs to God. People just didn't know it yet. Is it a whisper or a trumpet blast....From there, God established a relationship with Abram. Seperating him from his family and the land where they worshipped the sun and moon and stars.

I learn alot from animals. Children too.

#17 Rivka5768

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:10 PM

You see, I was born from Christian parents (kinda like how Rivka was born of "pagans" so the bible says?) anywho, I never ever heard that ^

Wasn't Rivka his brothers daughter and they were of the people who worshiped astrological deities?

I have yet to have any children of my own. I'm unmarried and they claim I'm infertile (they thought Rivka was barren hey what a coincidence, makes me wonder if names really "define" a person).

So for now animals :)

#18 spectra

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:57 PM

You see, I was born from Christian parents (kinda like how Rivka was born of "pagans" so the bible says?) anywho, I never ever heard that ^

Wasn't Rivka his brothers daughter and they were of the people who worshiped astrological deities?

I have yet to have any children of my own. I'm unmarried and they claim I'm infertile (they thought Rivka was barren hey what a coincidence, makes me wonder if names really "define" a person).

So for now animals :)


I'm not sure of the relation of Abraham and Rebeccah's father. It is probably in scripture somewhere.

It is good that you have someone in scripture to relate too. That does help. When Rebeccah did become pregnant and the boys wrestled in her womb and she enquired of the Lord,... God answered her in that one voice and language over all, that I was talking about. Kind of similar to this thread.

Well, we first see Rebeccah giving the camels a drink.

I feel like I am at twilight. Old and dying.

#19 Snag

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:13 PM

Rivkah was the daughter of Besuel the son of Nachor the brother of Avraham, so she was his great-niece.
"Spiritual wants and instincts are as various in the human family as are physical appetites, complexions, and features, and a man is only at his best, morally, when he is equipped with the religious garment whose color and shape and size most nicely accommodate themselves to the spiritual complexion, angularities, and stature of the individual who wears it."

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#20 Rivka5768

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:16 AM

I'm not sure of the relation of Abraham and Rebeccah's father. It is probably in scripture somewhere.

It is good that you have someone in scripture to relate too. That does help. When Rebeccah did become pregnant and the boys wrestled in her womb and she enquired of the Lord,... God answered her in that one voice and language over all, that I was talking about. Kind of similar to this thread.

Well, we first see Rebeccah giving the camels a drink.

I feel like I am at twilight. Old and dying.


Not dead yet! Would you like some water? LOL

Rivkah was the daughter of Besuel the son of Nachor the brother of Avraham, so she was his great-niece.


That's right! I can never think of his name.




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